Podcasts Between2Chains B2C0036: NFT Outlook for 2022 with Sasha Fleyshman of Arca (w/Sasha Fleyshman)

Episode Summary

Dec 14 2021 . 66 MIN

B2C0036: NFT Outlook for 2022 with Sasha Fleyshman of Arca (w/Sasha Fleyshman)

In this week's episode of Between 2 Chains Sasha Fleyshman joins our Host Peter Hans, talking about the outlook for NFT's in 2022. They discuss the minting process, Play-to-Earn model, what drives NFT value and more.

Show Notes


In this week's episode of Between 2 Chains Sasha Fleyshman joins our Host Peter Hans, talking about the outlook for NFT's in 2022. They discuss the minting process, Play-to-Earn model, what drives NFT value and more.



1.     Sasha begins the podcast by outlining what NFT is for investors who may not be familiar with it or are only familiar with what they see on, opensea, or read about it.

2.     Sasha talks about how quickly things are changing in terms of association with NFT's.

3.     Peter inquires of Sasha about his anticipations for NFT in the coming years.

4.     Sasha discusses the primary, secondary, and tertiary sales in relating to different examples.

5.     Sasha discusses what the term "metaverse" means to him and why he believes it doesn't exists now.

6.     Sasha discusses what he expects to happen in terms of payment methods.

7.     Peter agreeing with sasha says at the end of the day eath is denominated in dollars, dollars is still the global reserve currency.

8.     Peter and sasha concludes the show by comparing ether wallet with polygon wallet.




NOTE: Following transcript is generated using AI. Minor errors might be present.



Welcome to the real vision Podcast Network.



Before we get going, we want to remind you that Jeff Dorman is the co founder and chief investment officer of ARCA funds. And Peter Hans is ARCA funds managing director. The commentary and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast participants and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of our funds or its affiliates and are subject to change for any reason without notes. Any discussion of investments or investment strategies within this podcast are for informational purposes only, and not to be construed as a recommendation to buy or sell any particular investment, security, digital asset or strategy. Investing in digital assets involves a high degree of risk and volatility, including the risk of the total loss of principal and now enjoy the show with your host Peter Hans.



Hi, this is Peter Hans, welcome to between 2 chains. This week, we're continuing on the NFT theme. I'm joined by ARCA Portfolio Manager, and NFT expert Sasha Fleyshman. We talk about a lot of his predictions for 2020 to where the NFT market is going, what some of the themes are, and we try to separate the narrative and the noise from the actual investment opportunities. I always learned a lot of talking to Sasha and I hope you do too. Thanks.



Alright, Sasha, how are you? Welcome back to between 2 chains. It's been a little while.



Yeah, it's been a busy, busy couple of months. That's for sure. I'm doing all right. How about yourself?



doing just great. Thanks. doing just great. I don't know if you if you saw or heard. But actually earlier, it was released earlier this week. But I had, you know, I usually just talked to Jeff, on this podcast. And you know, we talked, we talked about, you know, the market, market dynamics and obviously painted in probably a different light than most of the kind of crypto digital assets world would paint. But you know, I had I had my first company founder on last week, who's who's, you know, my age a little older, actually. And is founded three different tech companies as being the kind of as web three pursue, but it's a it was an NFT based company in the kind of physical collectible space, at least at least to start in sportscards BlokPax, which I think I think I've told you about them in the past, but doing some doing some pretty interesting stuff. So this this is this is a good catch up on the heels of that conversation.



Yeah, I mean, you know, this is, this is how I envisioned entities going moving forward, you know, it's all been asset creation, and you're gonna start to see these inklings of asset migration or physical real world assets start to get represented on chain. And so, you know, this is a very rudimentary use case, but, you know, it's, it's going to continue to iterate forward.



Yeah, I mean, it is, it definitely is a rudimentary use case. But I think, you know, the important thing and look, I think, you know, put it this way, I mean, we're, you are, you've been, you know, very successful, personally and professionally granted, in a relatively short window, in this kind of very new asset class. And, you know, as a result, you're launching a, you know, totally new fun to solely dedicated to this to the space and one of the things that, that helped me really think about that effort is is, you know, separating the kind of popular narrative around avatars, crypto punks, board apes, and really just looking at the NFT, as, you know, your blockchain based, official and transferable certificate of ownership for anything. And I think that that's a that's a really powerful dynamic, because you can see, you can see where this can go, right, where we're NFT's is just kind of a, a unit of ownership can go and I don't know I Any, how would you kind of describe what it is, if you were telling, you know, an investor who maybe wasn't familiar or was solely familiar with what they see on, opensea or read about?



Yeah, so, you know, it's not a it's not a perfect comparison, but, you know, most of the time those that ask when NFT has, you know, traditional finance background or just an understanding of older markets, and as such, you know, I use like, the ETF wrapper as like a like a comparison where, within ETFs you know, you can put any sector you can put any, you know, conglomerate of assets within this wrapper, tighten the bow and ship it out as a product. And with NFTS it's not really pigeon holed to collectibles are sports, what have you, it's really just a wrapper. And within that wrapper, you can put you know, new assets like gaming assets or, you know, gender or you can put in, you know, traditional real world assets, you know, I can put I can put a house on chain. Yeah, like, there's been a big argument that, uh, you know, what's the point of the NFT, like, I can't hold it, I can't own it. But you know, when when you sell a house and somebody else, you know, I'm not, I'm not picking the house up and sending it over to you, you're coming to the house. So you don't really need a physical asset to move every time a transaction is made, all you need is a is a sustainable and transferable ledger of that provenance. So things like that are just very broad. And that's why, you know, entities to me aren't really a sector so much as it is a market. Within that market, there will be a ton of sectors. And, you know, we like to pen the term like digital assets for this space. I think you kind of separate the two, you know, taxonomy buckets, where one is asset creation, which are digital asset and native entities, and one is migration, or it's gonna be things like houses and pink slips, and DocuSign docs and KYC docs, like these are, these are all things that exist in the world today. But can be made better with the utility of an NFT token and, you know, the onset of DocuSign was, was amazing. I don't know how many people in this world still use fax machines, but it's definitely much lower than what it used to be. And I think that this is just the next iterative path in terms of moving all assets on chain, and towards what we'd like to call web 3.0.



So that, you know, this is a good example. You know, DocuSign, relative to fax machine, I guess one could argue, you know, scanning and emailing, but there's still a lot of, you know, other utility when you talk about, you know, the utility of an NFT or people talk about the utility of blockchain. You know, a lot of times people just say it, and then, you know, the person on the other end of the conversation doesn't necessarily refute it, or ask what that is, it's just kind of commonly accepted that there is utility, but you know, so when it comes to an NFT, what in your mind is, is that utility? Like, how is that making it better? versus, you know, the the existing process for any asset? Ownership, asset transfer? What have you?



Yeah, I mean, you know, like we said, this space is pretty nascent. And as such, you know, we're all still fleshing out what the, like, full playbook of utility can even look like. But, you know, early use cases or, you know, like boil loyalty, NFT's where you have early supporters that hold your early NFT's and you give them non monetary benefits, like early access to a movie or you know, direct communication with a with an artist, you also have something that I find very interesting in the traditional world is like the fractionalization of business models, where you can invest in specific parts of a business as opposed to a whole.NFT's allowed you to create non fungible compartments, and otherwise fungible like, ecosystem, right, where, in general, you know, if you invest in like a Buffalo Wild Wings, like, you're not really breaking out the alcohol sales from the food sales, you're kind of moving that all together. But, you know, if I somehow pinpoint a place where I don't really care about their food sales, I can, I can directly invest only in their bar section. And I think that that kind of stratification, you know, again, that's also rudimentary, but it kind of opens up the business model. For everybody. You talked about gaming, where every single asset in the game has a market, you talk about, you know, how Murat Pok just did his his art sale last week, and I'm pretty sure he just became the, the most how you call it, like, he's made the most money out of any artists in history living or dead last week. And, and that's, you know, that's rather amazing for someone that, you know, just no knock on him, but nobody knew who he was two years ago. And now he's, you know, at the top of the world, and, you know, people's right up there with him. And he has been known for a bit longer, but not so much in a monetized standpoint. So I think the the use cases get, get more pointed as the space develops, but I also don't think it's fair to point and laugh at a sector that's just, you know, kind of coming out of the cave, and saying that, like, you know, it's it's so archaic, but in reality, there's there's a massive evolutionary process that happens and as we all know, in this space, that evolution happens in days and weeks instead of months and years. So, you know, the present use cases are a lot of discussion based and you know, sometimes it's like early access to new things. It's inside looks at this and community aspects but in reality, this space will look nothing like it does today and you know, the next year or two, it's gonna be so much different.



So You Think You think we'll see noticeable change that quickly in terms of just say, Association of of NFT's?



I think we're already seeing it happen. You know, I think for better for worse, Facebook's rebrand a meta, you can argue that a siloed centralized Metaverse is not really Metaverse at all but in terms of just the networking effect that that had, you know, immediately after you have, you know, Adidas coming in you have Dolce and Gabbana, Louis Vuitton and like, like Make no mistake about it like these meta verses will have a Rodeo Drive, right? There will be a place for for every luxury brand in a Metaverse with concurrent marketplaces, concurrent storefronts, with you know, instead of having hundreds of employees, you can have five employees managing all of them at the same time. You're gonna have these traditional companies come in and at least make the attempt because one, it's it's free advertisement, even if it doesn't work, I think that they're the capital put in is more than returned in terms of like the news flow and, you know, the press releases and, and too, I think that this just unlocks so much value, where, you know, everything has moved online recently. You know, it's it started with communications and, and it moved over to banking and money and then moved over to to the US and how we generate information as a whole. You know, I can't remember the last time I turned on, you know, CNBC or Fox, I can remember the last time I read like a newspaper. But you know, I'm on Twitter every day. And I think that there's a lot more people like me that operate that way. So in a Metaverse function, a true Metaverse, which requires web three, that gives a playground for all these assets to interact and to thrive. And I think that the the migration is kind of, I don't want to sound, you know, build up, but it's kind of programmed at this point, like, this is the next iteration of how business works, in my opinion, at least on the on the primary sales side.



So what do you think are these? Well, let's, let's take a step back a little bit. So, you know, we're talking about a relatively short timeframe with with with next year. And I think we could all agree that, you know, we're involved in this asset class more broadly. And, you know, I'm intrigued by NFT's in particular, based on I think, where we'll see the next 10 years, not necessarily where we'll see the next year, but, you know, let's look at a year. You know, and I know, I know that, that the friendly marketing folks at ARCA are running a kind of big campaign now round, which is very timely around, you know, what predictions what do we see for next year? And and, you know, with NFT's in particular, I'd love to hear what you're anticipating.



Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, let's start with the art and collectible sector. I think that with what people has done in Morocco, it's done. And you know, a few other, you know, big name artists, I think that there's a big push for both up and coming new artists, as well as traditional artists to get involved in the space. They're seeing massive amounts of inflows in terms of, you know, revenues in terms of, you know, follow, like followers and just like brand building. But it's very hard for these people to get over the hump, because every platform has its own process for how not only how you met these assets and create them, but also, you know, the fee tech, the royalty rates, how compatible they are across the chain, where the images are stored, as is centrally stored, is it stored on IPFS? Or is it stored on, you know, the promo and with our wages? Is there another mechanism altogether? How, how safe are these smart contracts that they're building on? Like everyone's worried about reputational risk right now. So I think that in the next year, you'll see a massive push towards the standardization of minting you know, you have the ERC 721 standard, you have the 1155 standard, you have a few more standards cropping up. Personally, you know, we made an investment in chip. And, you know, I'm just a big fan of what they're doing with their PID contracts that, you know, building the royalties into the actual smart contract itself to make it agnostic. I just think that some way shape or form like this process has to be standardized across the sector, to allow these people to enter the market with confidence because there's a ton of value sitting on the sidelines waiting to come in. And it's all about getting them comfortable with what's otherwise a very confused and daunting, you know, market, it's brand new to a lot of people and to make them comfortable is to give them access to this to this field of opportunity.



You explain to me, that example you just gave about, you know, kind of royalty payments built into it. I'm familiar with, with, with what you're with the example you gave.



Yeah, so you know, there are primary sales and secondary sales of assets. The primary sale is pretty straightforward, you know, the person buying is sending the assets to the seller. And that's a simple one transaction. But a lot of these artists are baking in royalty payments, where any secondary sales of their assets, some of that revenue flows back to them. And the issue that's been happening is with, you know, you have an increasingly cross chain world between ethereum and a lot of avalanche, Luna Matic layer twos, like the, the contracts, are having a hard time swapping over and having a hard time being compatible cross chain. And often what is lost is the royalty sector where those royalties aren't built in on chain, they're kind of built into the platforms. So as long as you know, for instance, open sea, if I, if I'm an artist, and I sell it on open sea, and my primary sale happens there, and also the the majority of the secondary volumes happening on open seas, that my royalty rate is being paid out as a function of what input I put into the open sea collection page, that royalty isn't automatically paid out in real time on chain, it's also non transferable, or if someone you know, trades it on, you know, let's just call it a different marketplace that doesn't exist today that doesn't have this royalty built in, then that's being traded without my permission of the royalty rate. What these paid contracts allow for is for that royalty to be built into the contract where I attach my ELA etheurem address in there. And anytime a transaction is made, anytime a transfer of the asset happens, a portion of that asset is in the smart contract split off and splintered into into my ELA wallet. And that just gives artists a lot more freedom in terms of where their assets are held, where they're traded, where they're listed and sold.



Okay, interesting. I think I understand. So basically, I might have been a little confused on the on the primary secondary, because it's a little different than how I would think about it from the standpoint of like, more traditional capital markets where your primary issuance is basically like, would probably be equivalent to your minting. And then and then your, you know, anything that happens after that any sale that happens after that, that doesn't come directly from the issuer would be considered secondary. Okay, the difference with this being that with, with with anything being blockchain based, you know, in a, if you're talking about a primary issuance, and then a publicly traded stock, and anything that trades on the secondary market, like it's going through those exchanges, right, and it's clearing and settling, here, you know, me and you can I can just transfer NFT, we could be any asset to your wallet privately, like any sort of transfer? And and the thought is that, that that transfer, you know, basically, you're you're talking about, it's almost like a, like, you know, nothing compared to multilevel marketing, because there's obviously no, not a lot of similarities, but it's like multi level marketing, where you're getting paid basically, every time on there, that's actually a horrible analogy, because you're basically getting paid every time on the train on the sale, as opposed to, you know, like us, you know, as opposed to the owner of the NFT perhaps collecting a royalty payment, as those are paid to the original issuer, right, like, if you own a piece of music, and that music is owned, now by me, right, and it's used in a commercial, you know, the owner of that music, they're, you know, the record company, whoever would get a royalty payment, but as the NFT holder, that royalty payment should then go to me, but they have to find me, right, basically is is also kind of like what you're saying, it could go both ways.



I think, I think that the big difference would be that, you know, in in, in the stock market, you have like, you know, one or two main exchanges or main brokers or whatever you want to call it, you only have a few avenues to to interact with. So there's not many points of failure. And in this market, you know, there's 50 exchanges and there's aggregators, and there's, you know, this wouldn't stop like the private transaction side, right? If I if you just sent me the NFT and I sent you one eath. You know, that's not a that's not a smart contract interaction. That's just You know, paper, the handshake agreement. But what this is stopping is what I guess you can call tertiary sales. Right? Yeah, the secondary, the primary, now you're having the tertiary where it's not happening on the on the interface that you first created and sold the asset on. And as such the the royalty does not roll over to these other places. So it prevents, you know, if I meant it through open seas, minting portal and I sell primer and open sea, and then someone takes it over to foundation or arable and sells it there. There's no guarantee that that royalty pans over like what if I'm an artist that didn't know where didn't know wearable even existed. And so I never created an account and made myself a token creator and tied it to my address and made sure that the royalties came through like that, that's just a that's a fundamental lack of cross platform operability of these assets. And the endgame for NFT's as a whole is that they have to be productive. And to be productive, they have to be able to move around this environment, whether it be the metaverse exchanges, like you don't really create an account, when you go to any of these places, all you do is connect your wallet. As such, that means that these assets can move anywhere, because they're not really custody custody in any of these places at any time. And so So what that means is that these artists are leaving a lot of revenue on the table by not having these built into the contract itself. And I think that that's the main point of what this is trying to solve. And as a whole, I think standardizing this process across all all product lines is going to be very beneficial for I don't wanna call them user acquisition, but like talent acquisition of artists, and creators.



Right, but it could be money could go either way. Right? It could be it could be royalty payments to the to the artist, but it could also be they can monetize the rights to IP or copyright material, right, that someone else can then monetize.



Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm, I'm very interested in what's going to happen with this IP protection. Like, you're seeing a lot of chatter online about CCO and like what's going on at larva labs. The issue that I have with the IP element is that fighting, fighting breaches of IP is expensive. And for someone like logger Labs, which is a very well capitalized company, you know, they have they have an internal legal team that can handle in, they have the funds necessary to protect their IP, for, you know, Johnny Johnny on the block, you know, releasing it a piece of art that gets copied and sold, it's very difficult for him to go and fight that breach of IP, even if he's, you know, patented it or done, whatever. So I'm interested to see how this plays out. You're already seeing some cracks in the system where you're seeing like phishing attacks happening, where people are stealing NFT's and then selling them. And then the marketplaces like open sea are then freezing the purchasers account, who had no indication that the asset was stolen in the first place, and just you know, you know, lifted lifted the offer, it's, it's, it's, you're seeing the cracks start to come. And I think that the natural processes that we're going to iterate away from that and towards a more standardized process altogether, across like all functions, because that's, that's the only way that you get from, you know, I guess we can call it we're at zero to one right now. But to get from one to 100, you have to standard standardize this out. And that's kind of what ERC 721 and millimeter 35. Do on a contract standpoint. But I think now what we need is a minting process, standardization across the board.



So what would that do a standard is because because I understand is I understand what we were kind of just talking about, it seems to me, like there's two main issues. One is the standardization of various platforms. And maybe that's not as much of an issue as it as the standardization or at least communication between different chains. Right, if you have, you know, polygon and Ethan, you know, dapper and 50 others, like being able to not only exchange across those different chains, but then, you know, flow through for either provenance or things like, you know, royalty payments, right, like there are added complications there. But your your what you're saying his his changes to the minting process will solve that or do you also need bigger picture like better tools for or tools at all for cross chain communication?



Yeah, I mean, yeah, my britches more built around the the minting process itself, I think it's a good place to start in terms of crashing compatibility and like the actual assets, you know, that's being built out right now. And the tooling for that, you know, has to do a lot with like wrapping tokens and locking them in contracts. And you know, sometimes even having like a across chain went through authentication to make sure that like, you know, wallet, a wallet B are owned by the same account. So you don't actually have to bring the asset over to display it. If you're trying to like show it off in a gallery or use it in some ecosystem, you can kind of just sign a message gasless on while at one two approval to to display or use that asset. The that's all going to get built out that I don't really think I think it's gonna take a bit more time. I think I think that this space is still getting at sea legs on what it wants to be. And you know, we talked a lot about meta versus but I'm pretty hard in the opinion that there is no Metaverse today. You know, there's a lot of ideas of meta versus and definitely a lot of tokens that reflect the beta of people's excitement on meta versus but there is nothing that you can use today. And I think as that becomes a reality as opposed to just a concept, you will start to see a lot of these tooling kits being built out in real time and rather quickly. I've never seen the space build so fast as this with.



What do you mean by there is no Metaverse today and then maybe maybe start by defining Metaverse like maybe we all have different definitions of what that is. So what because I just understand it is, or at least the way I look at it is more of just a virtual world.



Yeah, so I mean, the term Metaverse is kind of arbitrary, right? It comes from a sci fi book. It's not like it's one of those things that you can just use as a catchphrase or a buzzword and you can make it what you will. But in the confines of what I think this sector is looking for. A Metaverse is a persistent and always flowing online environment that has an interconnected user base. So in terms of in terms of what we have right now, you know, decentraland, sandbox, crypto, voxels, somnium. Like, there's a reason that there's no real foot traffic on any of these. And it's not because people don't want to use it, people are begging to make their energies, productive assets. But there's these these universes have issues that I think are much bigger than just UX UI, you know, Slack, I think that the progression is that you need web 3.0 For meta versus to exist. And you need meta versus for NFT's to thrive. So the issue right now is that a lot of these, quote, unquote, meta verses are just, you know, hosted on servers, and it's no different than playing Minecraft. And if the server goes down, you're just sitting there waiting for it to come back online. And right now, I think this is just a testbed where people are trying to make it work, but there has been no PMF yet. And that's not that's not the fault of the space. I think that's, I think that's just a product mismatch right now. And so, you know, I'm very bullish on like the metaverse sector as a whole. But I would say that I'm a bit more lukewarm on the current offerings as it stands today.



So what do you think? When do you think that all starts to materialize? And what do you think people? Will there be some sort of aha moment where the world says we've been using this term wrong? Or is it more subjective than that?



I think it's more subjective. You know, I'm not I'm not saying that my idea is the best idea, but I think the aha moment comes from probably from a centralized issuer of a concurrent universe, you know, like World of Warcraft, or Runescape, or pretty damn close to what I would envision a Metaverse to look like. So you know, you're seeing Ubisoft come in and try to issue NFT's for their new game. You're seeing Facebook come in with meta, I think that'll be the incubator for what comes down next, which would be the decentralized, you know, actual Metaverse that that we're looking to go through and, and there is no I really think there isn't a timeline. I think that's a completely perpetual iterative process because it real Metaverse will be like a real online world and economy it's not it's like everyone thinks it's like a Ready Player One concept where everyone's gonna strap in with these VR headsets and just hang out all day and you know, just sit on the couch I don't envision it like that. I just we already spent so much time on the internet if you look at your computer screen on time or you look at your you know, your your time on your phone and how much time you spent on social media like we're already online, way more than we think we are. And and I just see no reason why they can't all be bundled up into a an aggregated universe. And that's what I assume a Metaverse to be a place where a place where you can interact via social media also a place where you can conduct business also place where it's a social interaction. And, you know, whether that be a video game, whether that be like a, just a virtual world like that. That's all like visual semantics. I think that the more important part is like the foundation of the, the idea that this place hosts all of these functions, and is built on top of a new stack of what we're calling web three.



Interesting, interesting, huh? I mean, it is kind of funny, it's like, the more you dig into this, the more you realize, you know, how much more there is a company, you know, it's like when people first get involved in this asset class, they think they know a little bit and they talk to like, Jeff, and then they just realize how, you know, they don't know so many multiples more than they do now.



Yeah, and I'm, I'm excited to meet some founders and talk to some projects, I guarantee you that I don't have the full picture either yet like that. You know, I, there's a lot of people touting themselves with NFT experts. You know, I've had people come up to me and ask me my opinion, as an expert, I'm like, to me, there are no experts. This test is four years old, at most two years old and reality. And it just, I don't care what market it is, you know, even though this market is blazing fast, like there is no expert here yet. We're all learning, there are people that are more in touch with what's happening. But I think the space is wide open, moving forward. And I'm just excited to meet people with other viewpoints. Because all I know is what I've been able to make for myself. And, you know, starting to build that process with other people will be incrementally beneficial, not only for myself, I think for the space as a whole. This is this just has to be a collaborative space, it starts out as a competitive space, you're just going to silo people out, you're gonna, you know, you're just gonna have attrition, and all these meta verses, and all these games and all these projects, but they all kind of it's very symbiotic where you want the other projects to succeed, because that bodes very well for your project as well.



Oh, yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. So in terms of so, you know, it seems like if we if we formalize this around what you think is gonna happen next year, you think standardization of the minting process will be, will be a big one. Do you do you foresee? What do you foresee in terms of method of payment, right? Because there's some out there that, you know, take credit cards, you know, I know, like Gary V's new platform is taking credit cards, and that might open things up to more buyers. But, you know, ultimately, the you know, these are these are these are assets that sit outside the Fiat ecosystem and transferability is best almost like not mixed, do you think that the mundane and like, almost like initial offering process still takes place on whether it's, you know, ether or or Matic or salon or what have you.



I think I think it depends on the asset that you're looking at. It's no coincidence that this is the most us, like logical fiat currency. But for the most part dollars, it's the most via denominated market that our space has. And I think that's primarily built around one the, the ease of getting off zero in this space, where collectibles and art are just generically a very easy concept to understand on a basic level two, the the, the acquisition costs for some of these entities are so low, like, you know, hundreds of dollars, it's still not like, you know, it's not free. But it's, you know, it's not low. And it's not really viewed as like an investment grade asset where people are, you know, dumping their whole portfolio into a picture of like a penguin. These, you just see this market, kind of buck the the overall digital asset market trend where, you know, I haven't run the backend and improve this, but anecdotally, I know it to be true, where, when eath rallies, you know, a lot of these assets lose value against eath and remain stable on the dollar peg goes down, a lot of these assets go up and eat terms and still remain stable on the dollar peg, all else, you know, all else equal. And I think that a lot of people make the assumption that eath is the driver of cause most NFT's are on today, some of us even as a proxy. But if all primary sales are happening, anything, all secondary sales are happening, right? There's a USDC option in open sea, but nobody really utilizes it. Sure people make the assumption that eath is the base Native Asset for this market. I just don't I just don't think that to be true. I think it's more of a pass through option where people take dollars that go by they use that eath to buy the asset. And then when the time comes, they sell the asset For even when I sell beats for dollars, so it's just a intermediary of what's otherwise a USD to NFT transaction.



Yep. I mean, yeah, I agree with that completely. I mean, at the end of the day eath is denominated in dollars, right? You know, dollars is still the global reserve currency.



Yeah, dollars is denominated in something. We don't know what that is but



denominated in itself. I mean, it does have an exchange rate with everything else. But you know, $1 is $1. And, you know,



any facility, but just nothing but the I think the impetus for all this is just that there's a ton of people that want to get involved. There's also a massive lack and like, everything for me asymmetry. So I'll call this educational asymmetry, like people are informational asymmetry. People don't know how to set up a wallet, they don't know how to interact with this ecosystem, signing a smart contract is terrifying for them. You know, a lot of these people are getting fished and scammed. And yeah, they buy an asset and don't know where it goes, it's just so much easier for them to plug in their credit card, pay that money, have it hosted on the website, and custodial format, and sell it when the time comes, like nifty gateway built their whole model on this, and I don't see a big problem for it. You know, there's definitely this polarizing opinion in our space, that it's either decentralized or as rat poison. And, and just to be honest, like, not everybody's ready for the full breadth of what this space can really offer. So I see no issue and people, you know, easing into the space, you know, I personally probably would not connect my credit card and buy with a credit card and have it hosted in custodial, which doesn't mean that it's not a viable option for people that are just looking to get involved in the space.



Yeah, I mean, look, there's so much to unwrap here. It is, to be honest, it is very confusing and intimidating. You know, for for a lot of people like there's just there's so many moving parts. And it's it's it's difficult, I mean, even look at you know, I for the life of me, I still can't understand like Metamask you can you could migrate between the you know, Etherium main net and and polygon main net. And I am trying to list something for sale on the Matic Network, an open seat that I own, and I don't have enough Matic in my wallet, I suppose right in my in my polygon wallet. Because you know, because every time I try to transfer it over to my wallet, it just goes to my eath network wallet, and I can't seem to get it from my Ethernet wallet to my Matic network wallet. And I'm sure there's like a very logical explanation for this. But I'm not a dumb person. I'm not the smartest person there. But I'm not an idiot. I can't figure this out.



Yeah, I'm more than happy to help you with that offline. But I think that, like, I think that these are real problems that, you know, I've been, I've been tinkering with something myself for the last couple of weeks. And I've been doing this for five years. And I'm still like, sitting here, like, this is basic, and I don't know how to do it. And I keep trying to do it, and it won't work. And I think that the difference is that, you know, if you're if you're an expert in Excel, right, and there's a function that you're trying to do, but you don't know it, it's easier for you to understand how to do it and get to the endpoint. So like for someone, like, like myself, you know, I've spent so much time in this space that if there's something I don't know how to do, I'll figure out how to do it faster. The issue is that, you know, like, I'm not to compare you to like my parents, but like, if I if I tried to get my dad to, you know, my dad owns like one or two NFT's mostly because that forced him to but, you know, if, if, if he tries to do it, and he doesn't understand, there's no, there's no figuring it out, right? There's no helpdesk, you can't call Metamask and say, Hey, I have a problem here. You have to figure it out on your own, like, the internet is a tool and like, you know, continent, you have colleagues that are tools, but if you don't know how the space works, you know, if you don't know how to do a specific thing, you're never gonna figure out how to do that thing, you're just not gonna be able to do it. And I think that's the, that's a part that a lot of people are trying to tackle right now. Like, the education like how to use the Metamask how to set up the polygon part, how to transfer assets from eath dematic. And, and these are all things that, you know, some viewers may be listening and saying, like, Oh, that's easy, like, I do it all the time. But that's because, you know, we're so entrenched in this space that it becomes like, you know, for me, like wallet, management's pretty, you know, natural, got me up at 6am and tell me, I have two minutes to do it, and I can do it. But for other people, you know, it's a full sit down process, you have to warm up for 15 minutes just remembering what you know, some people write down notes and it's like, it's not second nature to most people. And, and this is a brand new system, not not only a brand new asset class, but the whole like, function is just Brand new, like, like any any if, you know when we did like, online voting like that was a whole mess because like nobody knew exactly what they were doing the first time around. You know, when when the DMV was doing, you know certain things online during COVID. Like that was, I mean, the DMV is a whole nother story. But that was like the, anytime you integrate and introduce a new product, and you process and you commingle it with a new product, you're going to get headaches all over the place. But the difference here is that these headaches are valued in dollars. And a lot of times it's it's not a small, it's not 10 bucks, it's a lot of money. So that's where the frustration stems from, where people get annoyed that you know, all I'm putting, you know, whether it's 500 bucks, 1000 bucks, 10 grand, a million, it doesn't matter. But if it's significant to them, they're putting this money at risk, trying to figure out a system where they've never really had any background education on and they're getting stuck. And they're getting furious, because you know, now that they're worried that their money stuck, or they messed up and sent to the wrong place. And this is a bit off topic from this call. But I really do think that there will be gen ed classes in college in the next five years that like give basic introductory courses on how to interact with this ecosystem. And I think that people will be taking those classes just to understand how the basics work. Because there's no other way to do this, you can't bring this to 100 million people 500 million people, if it's too hard for them to get set up. Like nobody's going to put their money on here, if they keep losing and every time they try.



Yeah. I mean, absolutely. I mean, it's interface. It's like, you know, tech growth one on one. You know, and I think I think, you know, there's analogies to, well, there's a lot of analogies here. But you know, it's similar to, you know, early days of the of the internet, when you know, a lot of the, you know, hardcore, you know, coders were very against AGUI, because they thought that you should be able to code to access the internet that not that this is technologically savvy, but like, there's an element of, you know, individuals having to know how and knowing how to use a certain system, as opposed to, you know, making it easy for mass adoption, that'll obviously kind of lift, lift all boats. Let's move on here. Because, you know, you do have a couple of other I think, really interesting, you know, predictions that, you know, that I that I want to touch upon. You know, and, you know, let's talk about gaming real quick, because, you know, well, first off, we've talked about in the past, and obviously you and I have talked about this plenty offline, but define play to earn for the audience and kind of how that has, has changed the gaming world. And, you know, when you talk about what an implementation of played earn looks like in 2022, you know, how, how you see it really growing?



Yeah, so, you know, played earn as a whole is a concept that, honestly deserves its own hour. Yeah, it's not something I can explain in a minute. But in terms of basics, the way that I look at traditional gaming, in a sense is that it's, it's, it's a, it's a triangle. And on each corner of the triangle, you have, you know, you have the company and or project at the top. On the right, you have, you know, investors, on the left, you have users, and you ran into this issue where users are putting in sweat equity, they're also putting in actual equity, you know, whether they pay for the game or pay for add ons, or monthly subscription or a season pass. And they're the lifeblood of the game itself. And they're not getting properly compensated for their time, their effort in, in pushing this game towards its success, right. Gamers are typically the primary evangelists, for for a core game itself, you know, for any like, for fortnight or for League, you know, most people that follow the gaming space can name you know, popular streamers or professional eSports Esports players, I don't wanna call them athletes, but Esports players, you can name them, but I couldn't name you a single investor, League of Legends or fortnight they don't you know, that. They are not the people that drive the success of the game, they provide the capital. And maybe they do stuff in the backend. But in terms of how users how someone like me would go play that video game. It's based on someone else that already plays that video game. And what played earn allowed for is kind of the commingling of investors and users were all of a sudden, the users are now much more directly aligned with the success of the game. Because by being an early adopter, and by being an evangelist, you own the assets within the game. And as the game succeeds, your assets appreciate in value because all of a sudden there's an influx of new users that want to come play the game, there's only a certain amount of assets available. And on top of that, and The people's first thought is how's that not, you know, a pyramid scheme or MLM or whatever you want to call it, the difference is that it doesn't have to be an appreciation in, in her asset growth right where one asset, I bought it at $10. And I sold it to some guy three years later for a million dollars. What it could mean is that I'm harvesting resources within the game that are now fungible and tradable. I'm also creating new assets within the game that I can then give to the new users, when you sell them, it doesn't have to be a million dollars, it could be the same or that I bought it for, but now I have five of them instead of one. And I sell it to the new user, and I am the one that's benefiting from the growth of the DA use and the growth of all the KPIs instead of just the game itself. And now as the game grows, I also grow with it, which then makes me become a lifetime customer, because all of a sudden, you know, this game just changed my life and provides me income or so on and so forth. And now I'm being directly compensated for the sweat equity that I'm putting into this game. On top of that, you start to, you know, gaming is, is, is a massive, massive industry, there's 3 billion gamers in the world, probably more. And in that sense, these gamers are pretty siloed into the games that they play, right, you usually have types of gamers, you have people that like, you know, shooting games, you have people that like, you know, point and click games, or like, whatever you call it, me people that like trading card games, like turn based games, and they're all different styles of gaming. But what happens is that the assets within those games, and the money that flows through those ecosystems are pretty siloed into those sectors. And what this space allows for is kind of that capital flow, where if I, as a user played game a for three years, and all of a sudden, I decided, you know, this game is no longer for me, but it still has a really healthy, you know, organic, you know, community, I can sell those assets, take that, take those profits, roll it over to the new game, buy the assets in that new game, and then get started on that game. And that kind of interconnected aspect of the gaming ecosystem just allows for, like, a much quicker success rate for these games, you traditionally have a 95% mortality rate for for new games, you know, whether they never make it the product stage, whether they just never find PMF, once they get there, whether they need to raise down rounds, because they're running out of capital, this space just kind of changes that whole that whole function where when you incentivize people to play the game, and you have these products being built out like guilds that kind of



inject users into the game day one, I envision that that mortality rates can be brought down heavily to like 50% - 60%, which is still high, but it's a far cry from 95%. And the reason being is that you kind of turn gamers for better for worse digital mercenaries where they will try any game out of it, if it financially benefits them. And then along the line, you will find people that are sticky and stay around because they came to find that they actually enjoyed the game, or they're good at the game. And, and there's been a lot of backlash in the traditional gaming community that this is not good. And you're taking the fun away from gaming. And I kind of just point to them, like what do they really have to lose like the, the whole concept of web three versus web two is that in web two, you have 100% view, right? Everything that you do is being taken by someone else, whether it's Google, whether it's whoever is monetizing, like you're already being juiced. And in web three is kind of just giving ownership and power back to the people that are actually utilizing. So in traditional gaming, it's the same allegory where if you're playing these games, you're already giving them all your money and and your eyeballs and your you know, your clicks and, and they're monetizing that. So why not take that monetization for yourself if it's already being created, regardless, and you know, if you turn it into a career, I also don't see that as a bad thing. You have Ninja on Twitch making millions of dollars just streaming video games, you have the eSports you know, leagues just blowing up and generating tons of value. People can make this their career now you can play video games professionally. That's never really been the case before. You know you had like tech and and stuff like that. But that's more for fun. And at this point, I just asked him like, what did they have to lose? And I think I think a big proponent is his two pronged one prong is that a lot of them missed the early move in this space, which creates natural apathy. Right? If you've been a part of an a sector for so long, and you missed like that zero to one movement, you're gonna feel pretty pissed off, like you put in all the work and you just missed one project and all of a sudden, you could have been a millionaire had you only done this. So that creates apathy. And then on the second front, you have this kind of misinformation spreading around that like NFT's just burned down trees and you know, kick babies and like all of a sudden people think the NFT's are, you know, environmentally harmful, and and there's been a bit push for like, hey, like NFT's are bad for the environment, there's 3 billion gamers 3 billion cheese's gonna burn everything to the ground.



What does that mean? Sorry? But like, what the bad bad for the environment is that just the consistent ?



consistent in their game push? Yeah, like the cheese takes up a lot of bandwidth on the ecosystem, which requires a lot of GPU hash power, which requires a lot of electricity, which is, you know, carbon, you know, negative and very bad for the space. And it was just, it was just something that was pushed, you know, yeah, I get it,



like, literally every day, but it's, it's energy, right? Like, it really takes energy like that is stupid. He just makes no sense. He is a political narrative that,



like, we know, this fundamental, like anyone that knows this space knows it's not true. But the narrative has just been so strong, that you saw discord trying to integrate eath into their servers. And they received so much backlash that they had to say that they, this was just a thought process, and they're not actually going to do it. And the primary focus was around the environment. And you're seeing Ubisoft that came out two days ago and said that they're releasing this game using NFT's. And now they came out and said, that they're going to look further into it and whether or not it makes sense environmentally to do so. So there



yeah, but you know, it's it, it's still harmful in the sense that it's much harder to unteach someone something than it is to teach someone something. So I found it very easy to teach people, what NFT's are, from a base level of understanding, I find it much harder. When people come to me and say, Hey, I heard that NFT's are, you know, bad for the environment. And it's all wash trading and money laundering, and it's funding terrorism. And it's like, all these arguments, it's like death by 1000 cuts like for me to unwind all of this, all of these like, misrepresented arguments, it, that's all time that could be spent on educating them on what the space actually has to offer. So it just it just a second.



So that's all you should focus on. Like people don't people, people, people don't, people don't look to get educated unless they look to get educated, right? Like if someone is going to believe the narrative that it's bad for the environment, or that it's tied to money laundering or whatever like that they're not they're not have the mental capacity to, you know, to to all they'll do is combat you further, like that. That's this is that this is human nature, like one on one. You know that that's why that's why you know, all these idiots on Twitter, clamor all the time never actually convert anyone and just talk to the people who already believe what they believe.



Me, call me a doe eyed optimist, but um, you know, what I always tell people and this has nothing to do with NFT's This is the space in general, I find it much more as a, an equal opportunity space than it is like an equal representation space. All I want to do is bring as many people to the water as I can, like,



It's not it's not my it's not my prerogative, whether or not they drink but my fear and my, the thing that hurts me is when people say like, Oh, I wish I knew about this back then. Because, you know, like, I feel the same way. Like I found out about Bitcoin in 2016. And obviously, now I'm like, damn, I wish I knew about it, like 2012. And whether or not I would have done anything back then, who knows, but like, I never had that opportunity. Because one I was, I was like, what, 15 years old. And two, like I just didn't know enough about, I didn't know enough about the space, I didn't know enough about money. I didn't know enough about myself to like, figure it out. And some people like, like, we're so US centric, and specifically like us, like we're so crypto centric, that sometimes we forget that. Like, if I go to a random town and and Wisconsin, like, nobody's gonna know what the hell I'm talking about. I'm gonna sound like an idiot. So like, I, my goal is just to get as many people to understand the basics. And from there, it's it obviously, the whole space has to do better at resource providing people also have to do better, like, you know, committing time to learn it, but I mean, what more can we do then, like at least try to get people started on that path?






Oh, sure, my only point being that, you know, you what you do very well is is is speak with, you know, passionate about the merits of something not you know, what is going to be ineffective is and I don't mean this episode to be like an advice episode, but is what is going to be ineffective is trying to debunk a narrative. Right, like, like it's impossible. And does the room use energy? Yeah, you know, everything uses energy, like, No, I'm not gonna refute that. It doesn't use a lot of energy, but the point is like, everything uses energy. You know, it's not isn't the use of energy, it's the sourcing of that energy. And it's the, it's the, the use case of that energy, people are gonna play video games, no matter what, like, you know, people should be up in arms about YouTube or, you know, or twitch or whatever the hell other people do. Like, it's just, it's just a narrative is the bottom line. So anyway, moving moving on, you know, as I heard, you talk about kind of the plate earn model. And I never thought about this until you just started talking about I mean, it sounds in essence, like very similar to the concepts behind DeFi, which is, in essence, you take the, you know, I won't say all, but you take some of the monetary benefits that would normally flow to the corporate entity, and you distribute those amongst the, you know, participants in that ecosystem that are adding value to the ecosystem in the first place, you know, whether it's a co op model or a, you know, a, you know, insurance mutual or something like that, like, that's very similar to what you're talking about here with, with gaming.



Yeah, I mean, that, in essence, that's what this space has to offer, right? It's, it's opening up the ability for people to invest like, I, I own zero stocks, and I have no plans to own stock. And for the most part, you know, I'm not really, maybe now I am, but previously, I wasn't considered an accredited investor, I wasn't considered like smart money. And people like I have, I have like, $800 of GE stock that my dad gifted me after 9/11. And I've been trying to close it out of my Schwab account for three years, and they won't let me like the, the investor relations.



May be they will lay you.



 like, they keep sending me forms, I keep signing the forms, then they send me new forms and sign those forms. And they say that the forms weren't filled out correctly. So I have to go to the office, and I'll go and I'll sign them again. It's like a bureaucratic nightmare. And a lot of these things are, it really is like a, like a mental hurdle, or like, I don't, I'm not comfortable putting my money into these types of markets. And I know that sounds. I know, that sounds asinine, but I think that, I think that that's kind of becoming more of a reality in at least my generation where like, we don't put money into the stock market, we don't, the only money I have that's reflected in equities is my 401k. And that's probably how it will be until the day I die. And, and that, you know, you I will die on that hill, not many hills, I'll die on but that's what I want. Because it's, there's no, there's no reason for me to invest in a market like that anymore. When there's a market like this that exists, that it's just a much more direct representation of my money, where I put my, I put my capital in, and I know exactly what I'm getting. And I may not like it. And there may be some bumps along the way. And there might be some hacks and some mismanaged teams, but I know, I know what I'm getting. When I buy common stock, I have no idea what I'm getting. And, and it just not attracted to me.



That's interesting. I don't know what everyone's gonna



be sitting here, listening to them saying what the hell's wrong with this guy, but



it's just, it's just, it's what you know, right? Ultimately, is what it is, when it comes down to



mostly digital, we grew up in a digital environment, and the generation after me is definitely going to be fully digital. And as such, you're gonna see people that have a much better affinity towards digital investments. And what



What it means, you know, stocks are digital, I mean, I, you know, it's been a long, long, long time, since I had a physical stock certificate, you know, like, everything is still done digitally. I mean, you know, and much of it is gamified. It's just really, you know, I guess it could be looked at a lot of different ways, and I'm not gonna try to, you know, do that on this podcast, but, you know, it's, it's really, maybe, maybe it's faith in the legacy financial system, maybe it's something else, I don't know.



I think that's why Robin Hood, as a platform kind of took off is because it didn't feel like a broker, it didn't feel like I had to wait, you know, for market open to market clothes or call somebody or you know, or log into this institutional account and like, you know, wire funds from a bank, like it just didn't, it didn't feel like that. All I had to do is connect a debit card or credit card and just fire away. Right? And that kind of like you said, it kind of gamified the whole thing. digital assets as a whole. This space is just, it kind of tore down a lot of the barriers. And in that sense, it just the step from wanting to invest to actually investing is so much quicker. Like, I'm so serious about this, if you told me if someone offered me $10,000 and said go invest that $10,000 in the stock. I wouldn't even know where to begin I would, I'll probably call Schwab and say, Please help me, because I have no idea. And


PETER HANS 1:00:04

what do you mean by that? I just like, name a company, they like,



none of them. But let's just


PETER HANS 1:00:11

say that you don't use any products of any time,



I wouldn't invest in any company now. I think I think that as a user, I am not getting the same representation as an investor if you invest in McDonald's, because McDonald's, I don't think that's a fair representation of your capital.


PETER HANS 1:00:32




Because as McDonald's is more successful, me as a user sees no incremental benefit. If I eat if I eat burgers, my burgers are gonna start tasting better, because they're gonna share price when I. And so so I like for me, it just, it just for better for worse. That's, that's how my brain is wired. I just can't Yeah.


PETER HANS 1:00:56

We're not talking about that we're talking about, we're talking about investing in a company, right? Not necessarily.



I would, I would get this money, right and go to my bank. And I'd probably have to call Schwab or, you know, TD Ameritrade or whoever they use that to be like, Hey, here's my $10,000, I'm gonna wire it in. And I want to go buy this stock. And I'm like, I'm, again, like, like you said, I'm not the smartest in the world. But I'm also not an idiot, like, I'll figure it out. But there's that dislike, I don't want to do it. There's that disdain, like, I just don't want to


PETER HANS 1:01:27

a website, right? Like, I'm probably an app. I mean, I'm Schwab,



I don't know, my password, I don't even know my password


PETER HANS 1:01:34

these are ridiculous excuses. I don't know my password.



I don't know. And I don't care to know, because the space that we have, it's not even about the return profile, it's, I understand this space better inherently, I learned about like, you know, Bitcoin, and I understand it better than me looking at like McDonald's, like, Okay, I'm gonna go look at like their, you know, their earnings report and go look at like, all their all their metric. Like, that's not the life that I grew up in. And again, you know, coming from a chemistry background, maybe that's the part that's harming me, but it's just not the space that I understand. I do understand this space. And when I when I talk to, you know, I have a lot of friends that are, you know, finance graduates, and, you know, a lot of them work in like, you know, banking or traditional. And, you know, I'll speak to them about crypto and, and I just find that their onboarding process to understand what I'm doing is much faster than my process, understand what they're doing. And I think that a lot of that has to do with the fact that this space just speaks better to the way that we were raised in terms of the technology that we had growing up. I know that might be far fetched, but that I just fully believe that.


PETER HANS 1:02:43

You maybe, maybe, I don't know if it's technology so much as it is, you have a very isn't it with with you? It seems more philosophical, you know, then then technology oriented. I mean, it's not like I grew up in the bucket, you know, Paleolithic era, right.



Yeah, I mean, I even look at my brother, right, my brother's a freshman in college. Yeah, no indication of the digital asset space. But, you know, I walked him through at a bias in the theater. I mean, he bought some Ethereum and eventually he bought an NFT with it, he doesn't own any shares either. And he's, he's a vintage, you can go buy it if he wants it, just like there's more of an affinity to the space. And, again, I can't I can't speak to maybe it's because we're in a massive bull market, and everyone's saying people just printing money, but this is something that we can argue at nauseam, we'll never be able to come to the conclusion


PETER HANS 1:03:33

But I'm not arguing with you at all, you know, believe what they want to leave, you know,



I agree. I just I just think that a lot of the space in terms of like, just to bring it back to the point in terms of defy entities, all of this I think that just unlocks a like a an easier level of understanding what you're actually getting when you're doing something. If I buy sushi and I stick it into the XOP pool I know that I'm getting around six to 7% APR on my assets I know that I'm making a little bit of money based on the on the revenues from the fees in the market. I can't say that I would understand the same for everything else like you know 10k Thank you like I don't I don't read these things. I don't understand it if I read them I wouldn't get them and and that's a knock on me and I don't mind that but like I don't get them and I don't think my brother would get them but if I explained to him what sushi does I think you'd get it in like 10-15 minutes


PETER HANS 1:04:26

right? Yeah. Look, we could talk forever on this. We should probably wrap up



so until next


PETER HANS 1:04:38

I don't know if we we got through all your predictions but I think we got through more than enough. Yeah, I mean, look, I am I'm very excited to see what happens next year. I am you know, enthralled with not just the obviously the asset class in general but the the NFT space in particular. Is is very exciting to me. Once you show me How to I would imagine it just has to do with poly chain and ether. Totally different blockchain. So you you're transferring from an ether wallet you can't transfer to a college to a polygon,



you have to bridge it, but it's simple enough once I show it like again, this is like a 10-15 minute thing


PETER HANS 1:05:15

 I'll show you and I probably just don't want to pay the gas fees. Yeah, okay. Okay. Cool. All right. So we'll do that and yeah, Sasha was, it was great having you on again. And, you know, I'll talk to you probably in about 15 minutes.



Yeah, you got it. Thankyou.



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