Grant Williams in Conversation with Anthony Deden: Part I

Published on
February 16th, 2018
71 minutes

Grant Williams in Conversation with Anthony Deden: Part I

Grant Williams ·
Featuring Grant Williams

Published on: February 16th, 2018 • Duration: 71 minutes

The first part of this first-ever interview with Tony Deden, chairman of Edelweiss Holdings. Tony's focus on scarcity and endurance in his investment portfolio and the stewardship of what he thinks of as irreplaceable capital has led him to reinvent the discipline of value investing. Tony’s thoughtful, patient approach to the allocation of his investors' capital has yielded exceptional returns – and his disciplined investment philosophy offers an eye-opening insight into many of the problems inherent in the modern-day asset management business. Filmed January 18th-20th, 2018 in Grindelwald, Switzerland.


  • JB
    Jonathan B.
    27 February 2021 @ 23:31
    As a business owner myself, and having poured my blood sweat and tears into delivering quality and value, and ultimately becoming profitable, and knowing how hard it is to sustain..... Deden’s thoughtful observations ring true. This interview is a great reminder of what is real, in a time when everything feels unreal.
  • TF
    Theodore F.
    7 February 2021 @ 22:47
    Deden is deeply influenced by the Austrian economic tradition. Those who find his views or this interview interesting, could also benefit from studying the Austrians directly.
  • MJ
    Matt J.
    27 January 2021 @ 12:49
    This is one of the best interviews I've heard on RV! Thanks for making it happen.
  • AW
    Aaron W.
    8 March 2020 @ 14:29
    Extraordinary. Possibly the best finance video of all time.
  • EH
    Erik H.
    14 February 2020 @ 21:20
    So does anyone know if he listed his fund on the stock market?
  • SP
    Sat P.
    25 September 2019 @ 21:26
    52:53 - "The Great Broom Theory" - this was a brilliantly simple way to find the very highest quality publicly listed stocks in the Anglosphere
  • PS
    Pan S.
    12 March 2019 @ 06:00
    I'm sure I'd be more impressed with his morality if he weren't into tobacco stocks. That's making money off of murder, and there's nothing high-minded about that.
  • RK
    Robert K.
    20 February 2019 @ 23:26
    amazing stuff
  • MS
    Matt S.
    23 December 2018 @ 23:02
    Wise words.... will watch Pt 2 tomorrow! All these guys live in such awesome locations!
  • LG
    Leonard G.
    30 October 2018 @ 08:18
    Fascinating conversation. Grant, can you interview Nasim Taleb next, to follow up on Tony's reference to anti-fragility?
  • ME
    Marc E.
    28 October 2018 @ 02:26
    Grant, thank you for bringing us this pair of interviews with Anthony. I have watched them repeatedly and they have been the most profound discussions I’ve ever heard. Thank you again, so much. Anthony’s philosophy has turned my mind upside-down.
  • PV
    Paul V.
    7 October 2018 @ 19:00
    My favorite RV interview. Totally altered my thinking. Made me question the assumptions in my process.
  • DC
    D C.
    26 September 2018 @ 19:29
    But what about the results? Similar to SP or MSCI Global Consumer Staple Index Tony is a great communicator and has that rare mix of sophisticated but folksy charm about him. However, when I dug into his performance, unfortunately it's rather pedestrian. As his focus is primarily on consumer staple stocks, using global consumer staple indices such as S&P or MSCI, render his results within the range since 2001 inception. In the presentation above, he uses MSCI World Index as benchmark, but consumer staple is clearly more relevant, and interestingly enough the good ole tried and true consumer staple stocks have outpeformed the total world index by a fair margin. So Tony's alpha comes predominantly in being invested in global consumer staples. And if you want to mimic those returns just buy the ETF!
    • AN
      Ashley N.
      4 October 2018 @ 12:17
      What you're missing completely in this analysis is he did this while being invested only 50-70% in equities at any given time. Consumer Staples indices are by definition fully invested and have survivorship bias.
  • JS
    John S.
    23 August 2018 @ 00:56
    So much wisdom
  • DS
    Darryl S.
    28 June 2018 @ 12:24
    Probably an odd comment when talking about finance. But what a lovely man he is.
  • DC
    Darren C.
    25 June 2018 @ 02:48
    This old world wisdom is scarce, unfortunately. It is like getting a life lesson from your grand-father. Oh, and the Swiss scenery is gorgeous.
  • BH
    Brian H.
    1 May 2018 @ 23:55
    This was by far the best interview I have watched on Real Vision. I have been a subscriber since near the beginning as well.
  • RD
    R D.
    23 March 2018 @ 04:27
    This interview alone is probably worth half-a-year's worth of a Real Vision subscription. Deden just blows my mind to pieces.
  • LK
    Lisa K.
    22 February 2018 @ 21:45
    Tony's speech in 2009 ""
    • JV
      Jason V.
      25 February 2018 @ 08:48
      Thank you, Lisa. Much appreciated.
    • JT
      Jake T.
      18 March 2018 @ 21:01
      Yes, thank you. I really enjoy reading and/or listening to anything he has to say.
  • VP
    Vincent P.
    3 March 2018 @ 20:00
    Honored to be the 1,000th Thumbs Up! Going to Part II.
  • IP
    IDA P.
    28 February 2018 @ 12:22
    this interview is a paradox
    • IP
      IDA P.
      28 February 2018 @ 12:25
      in the sense that we are watching an independent channel to get independent opinions, and he states that to remain mentally clear and independent you must not speak with financial channels, etc.
  • CS
    Christian S.
    27 February 2018 @ 21:00
  • JM
    Justin M.
    25 February 2018 @ 17:05
    Brilliant. One of my favorite interviews so far. Mr. Deden has a remarkable talent for communicating and creating a framework upon the important principles that endure.
  • JA
    John A.
    23 February 2018 @ 11:52
    What a breath of fresh mountain air.
  • IL
    Ian L.
    16 February 2018 @ 14:44
    Extraordinary interview. So much money in the world is being invested so badly it is just refreshing to find someone trying to do the right thing. I am so envious that he has found clients who support his vision and are not just after making a fast buck. Look forward to part 2.
    • SA
      Scott A.
      21 February 2018 @ 01:12
      First of all, I loved the interview and DH was spot on. But to be honest, a momentum based adviser that really believes in FANG stocks (and the Fed) would have generated his clients with a far higher return (my guess) over the past 3-4 years. I guess my point is "So much money in the world is being invested so badly" is a pretty broad statement. Is our momentum adviser, who desires to maximize his clients returns somehow "less worthy"?
    • JH
      J H.
      22 February 2018 @ 09:32
      Making gains for 999 years to lose it all on the 1000th makes you famous and popular but it doesn't grant you survival. The dinosaurs were big and impressive but only the versatile birds and mice survived the extinction event (big simplification). You don't need to hide at the bottom of the ocean and avoid evolving like people the way people consider nautiluses, but you can have things in moderation.
  • GO
    Gary O.
    22 February 2018 @ 05:03
    So can we find the other two wise men?
  • AB
    AJ B.
    21 February 2018 @ 19:41
    Setting a reminder to listen to this each year for the rest of my life.
  • RD
    RP D.
    20 February 2018 @ 21:49
    Fantastic content. Well done Grant!
  • DC
    Douglas C.
    20 February 2018 @ 20:36
    Great interview. This is why I subscribe.
  • TJ
    Terry J.
    20 February 2018 @ 13:39
    That was a priceless interview! I learnt so much, and can't wait to watch Part II. Incredible how you guys at RVTV just keep pushing the envelope! Thank you.
  • BN
    Brandon N.
    20 February 2018 @ 13:34
    Is there 12 or so viewers who dislike every piece? Not sure how someone could genuinely dislike this piece...unless of course they already know everything.
  • AE
    Alex E.
    20 February 2018 @ 04:51
    Mr. Deden reiterates what men such as Warren Buffett and Charles Munger have always said: Buy great companies at great prices then sit on your ass. How do you argue with such logic?
  • CS
    C S.
    17 February 2018 @ 12:08
    Why would business people sell a minority share of the business to a third party? (or are these publically listed shares?). Grant and Raoul decided to build their own business/capital, rather than invest in another business.
    • RT
      Rune T.
      17 February 2018 @ 13:30
      Pretty much what I was contemplating, at least healthy 100+ yrs old businesses should rarely need to raise such significant capital and as a business owner myself, with no desire nor need for credit/capital I'd hesitate to sell a 10% stake to a passive 3rd party. However I would like to be a passive 10% owner of healthy durable businesses - but don't see how unless they were raising significant capital or of course, traded publicly (as some of course do). Think of HSY etc.
    • DB
      David B.
      19 February 2018 @ 11:51
      I was also contemplating the same question. It's ashame the question wasn't asked.
    • DS
      David S.
      19 February 2018 @ 20:29
      In a family business each new generation needs some cash. A regular business may be fully invested but need additional cash or additional expertise.. With Mr. Deden's reputation, long-term investment perspective, and track record they may just want him on the team. I would. DLS
    • PC
      Peter C.
      20 February 2018 @ 04:42
      he's kinda like a Buffet
  • SS
    Sam S.
    19 February 2018 @ 20:59
    In the words of Christopher Walken---WOW!
  • DG
    David G.
    17 February 2018 @ 19:50
    I made a journey down the rabbit hole many years ago, only to emerge later a changed man, but never heard the trip put quite so brilliantly (I'm paraphrasing from memory) as Tony put it: "Retrace your steps and stress test every assumption you've ever had and you'll come to the conclusion that everything the authorities have ever told you is wrong. I mean everything. It's all a lie."
    • DS
      David S.
      19 February 2018 @ 20:19
      Socrates, Descartes and Kant used the rabbit hole trick also. Mr. Deden came out of the rabbit hole with a whole new perspective. I hope you were successful also. DLS
  • PV
    Peter V.
    18 February 2018 @ 20:30
    Great work, Grant!!!
  • FG
    Fred G.
    18 February 2018 @ 18:35
    I am unable to say this better than DH. This was a brilliant interview of a brilliant man. Well done, Grant! And thank you, Anthony Deden for agreeing to share your wisdom and insights!
  • TH
    Timo H.
    18 February 2018 @ 07:02
    Wisdom just got a face.
  • MN
    Maverick N.
    18 February 2018 @ 04:12
    Phenomenal interview!! Unadulterated wisdom. Hats off to Grant to be able to ask the question and just let Anthony craft his answer using carefully measured and chosen words.
  • DT
    Douglas T.
    18 February 2018 @ 02:27
    I don't know how Grant does this, but he gets the most amazing people to just open up and give up the wisdom of their kingdom. Awesome. As an indivdual investor who has some 'savings', this idea of "don't f'ing loose it!" is central to my thinking. But it's far too easy to become seduced by that "easy" money to be made speculating. Siren songs eminating from every corner of the financial world. I think Anthony will keep me on the stright and narrow for some time.
  • CM
    C M.
    18 February 2018 @ 01:09
    First interview that I actually took notes. Don't know how anyone gave this a thumbs down. One of the best I have seen on RV. Congrats.
  • TR
    Thomas R.
    18 February 2018 @ 00:00
    One of the real distinguishing points on this interview was Grant’s patience, letting this man simply talk and share
  • RA
    Robert A.
    17 February 2018 @ 18:29
    I’m pretty sure that without Grant we would not have had this peek into this investment framework. But....there is just something about Grant....I spent one hour with him for breakfast and told him something that I’ve never told any other person....without him asking me....just thought it was something he might want to know. Grant, it’s a gift that you have. I do have two consuming questions though: Indeed, why would a company that fits into Tony’s framework want to sell him 1-10% of their business? Second, why indeed did Tony succumb to Grant’s repeated requests give the RV interview? Perhaps there is just something about getting to be a certain age that makes one want to pass along Wisdom even at the risk of giving up some hard won privacy. Or....maybe it’s just Grant’s gift. A personal big thank you to Raoul for the vision behind RV and for partnering with Grant Williams. I think we are all better off for their, and their team’s, efforts.
  • HS
    HANA S.
    17 February 2018 @ 16:44
    Absolutely brilliant interview
  • SL
    Stephen L.
    17 February 2018 @ 12:32
    "The idea of having X% in Industrials and Y% in [whatever else] ... doesn't make any sense. Any more than a car manufacturer thinks that he has to have X% of an automobile in glass and Y% in steel" Forced to invest during QE is "like going to a restaurant where everything on the menu is poisoned, but you're still hungry" Loads of gems in this interview. I've never had to mash the "rewind 15 seconds" button so often. Thanks RV!
  • S
    Sean .
    17 February 2018 @ 10:04
    Simply a brilliant interview. RV has outdone itself yet again
  • AM
    Alexander M.
    17 February 2018 @ 03:34
    Gave me the chills. This is art. Thank you and can’t wait for part 2
  • JH
    Jesse H.
    16 February 2018 @ 22:12
    Probably the best interview I have seen on RV. Fantastic - looking forward to Part II.
  • NS
    Nathaniel S.
    16 February 2018 @ 18:56
    This is why I joined RV in the beginning. Bravo! Absolutely phenomenal work. I love the production, the pacing, the editing and outside shots, as it all enhances the experience and brings the viewer in to more appreciate the depth of content. Anthony is remarkable and Grant's interview style gets us the gold. Thank you.
  • AS
    Alex S.
    16 February 2018 @ 17:46
    I've never heard of this man before but I am quickly growing fond of his views
  • SD
    S D.
    16 February 2018 @ 15:54 Has the FBI been suborned by a company that Cohodes has targeted? Great job by Bloomberg, but Grant Williams paved the way.....
    • GR
      Gregory R.
      16 February 2018 @ 17:06
      "different point of view"
  • GR
    Gregory R.
    16 February 2018 @ 16:52
    Thank you RV! This interview dragged me 'out of the box' and and as the song goes "I came away with a different point."
  • JL
    Johnny L.
    16 February 2018 @ 15:07
    This guy should be the keynote speaker at DAVOS and hired by all investment firms for a speech

Mark Yusko

Morgan Creek Capital Management, Co- Founder, CEO, & CIO

Mark Yuskois the Founder, CEO and Chief Investment Officer of Morgan Creek Capital Management. He is also the Managing Partner of Morgan Creek Digital Assets. Morgan Creek Capital Management was founded in 2004 and currently manages close to $2 billion in discretionary and non-discretionary assets. Prior to founding Morgan Creek, Mr. Yusko was CIO and Founder of UNC Management Company (UNCMC), the Endowment investment office for the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Before that, he was Senior Investment Director for the University of Notre Dame Investment Office.Mr. Yusko has been at the forefront of institutional investing throughout his career. An early investor in alternative asset classes at Notre Dame, he brought the Endowment Model of investing to UNC, which contributed to significant performance gains for the Endowment. The Endowment Model is the cornerstone philosophy of Morgan Creek, as is the mandate to Invest in Innovation. Mr. Yusko is again at the forefront of investing through Morgan Creek Digital Assets, which was formed in 2018. Morgan Creek Digital is an early stage investor in blockchain technology, digital currency and digital assets through the firm’s Venture Capital and Digital Asset Index Fund.Mr. Yusko received a BA with Honors from the University of Notre Dame and an MBA in Accounting and Finance from the University of Chicago.

Anthony Scaramucci

SkyBridge Capital, Founder & Co-Managing Partner

Prior to founding SkyBridge in 2005, Scaramucci co-founded investment partnership Oscar Capital Management, which was sold to Neuberger Berman, LLC in 2001. Earlier, he was a vice president in Private Wealth Management at Goldman Sachs & Co. In 2016, Scaramucci was ranked #85 in Worth Magazine’sPower 100: The 100 Most Powerful People in Global Finance. In 2011, he received Ernst & Young’s “Entrepreneur of the Year –New York” Award in the Financial Services category. Anthony is amember of the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), vice chair of the Kennedy Center Corporate Fund Board, a board member of both The Brain Tumor Foundation and Business Executives for National Security (BENS), and a Trustee of the United States Olympic & Paralympic Foundation. He was a member of the New York City Financial Services Advisory Committee from 2007 to 2012. In November 2016, he was named to President-Elect Trump’s 16-person Presidential Transition Team Executive Committee. In June 2017, he wasnamed the Chief Strategy Officer of the EXIM Bank. He served as the White House Communications Director for a period in July 2017. Scaramucci, a native of Long Island, New York, holds a Bachelor of Arts degree in Economics from Tufts University and a Juris Doctor from Harvard Law School.

Michael Saylor

MicroStrategy, Co-Founder

Mr. Saylor is a technologist, entrepreneur, business executive, philanthropist, and best-selling author. He currently serves as Chairman of the Board of Directors and Chief Executive Office of MicroStrategy, Inc. (MSTR). Since co-founding the company at the age of 24, Mr. Saylor has built MicroStrategy into a global leader in business intelligence, mobile software, and cloud-based services. In 2012, he authoredThe Mobile Wave: How Mobile Intelligence Will Change Everything, which earned a spot onThe NewYork TimesBest Sellers list. Mr. Saylor attended the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, receiving an S.B. in Aeronautics and Astronautics and an S.B. in Science, Technology, and Society.

Alex Saunders

Nugget's News, Founder & CEO

Alex Saunders is the founder and CEO of Nugget’s News, a digital media company focused on all things crypto. Alex has been captivated by cryptocurrency since 2012 and in 2017 he began educating globally on the benefits of cryptocurrency and how to safely acquireit. Nugget’s News has been listed as a top-20 podcast by Business Insider, ShapeShift and Lifehacker and has over 120k YouTube subscribers with 9 million total views.Alex is also heavily focused on his cryptocurrency education platform Collective Shift which currently serves over 4,500 members. provides his unique perspectives by utilising his expertise in fundamental analysis, technical analysis and market sentiment. He is working towards his mission of making it easier for everyone to understand the financial world.

James Putra

TradeStation Crypto, Inc., Sr. Director of Product Strategy

James helped launch TradeStation Crypto’s offeringwhichutilizesa true online brokerage model that self-directed investors and traders have come to expect for equities, futures,and foreign currency markets. He is a reputed crypto asset specialist and blockchain thought leader focused on helping people find innovativeways to participate in this space. He is active in the blockchain community with speaking engagements, TV appearances and mentoring.James has over 15 years of experience in the Fintech industry.

Raoul Pal

Real Vision, Co-Founder & CEO

Raoul Pal is the Co-Founder and CEO of Real Vision, the world’s pre-eminent financial media platform, which helps members understand the complex world of finance, business, and the global economy. Real Vision members also have access to Real Vision Crypto, a cryptocurrency and digital assets video channelwatched by over 80,000 people.In addition, Raoul has been publishing Global Macro Investor since January 2005 to provide original, high quality, quantifiable and easily readable research for the global macro investment community hedge funds, family offices, pension funds and sovereign wealth funds. It draws on his considerable 31 years of experience in advising hedge funds and managing a global macro hedge fund. Global Macro Investor has one of the very best, proven track records of any newsletter in the industry, producing extremely positive returns in eight out of the last twelve years. He retired from managing client money at the age of 36 in 2004 and now lives in the tiny Caribbean island of Little Cayman in the Cayman Islands. Previously he co-managed the GLG Global Macro Fund in London for GLG Partners, one of the largest hedge fund groups in the world. Raoul moved to GLG from Goldman Sachs where he co-managed the hedge fund sales business in Equities and Equity Derivatives in Europe. In this role, Raoul established strong relationships with many of the world’s pre-eminent hedge funds, learning from their styles and experiences. Other stop-off points on the way were NatWest Markets and HSBC, although hebegan his career by training traders in technical analysis.

Peter McCormack

What Bitcoin Did, Journalist

Peter McCormack is a full timejournalist/podcaster covering topics such as Freedom, Human Rights, Censorship and Bitcoin. Peter created and hosts the What Bitcoin Did Podcast, a twice-weekly Bitcoin podcast where he interviews experts in the world of Bitcoin development, privacy, investment and adoption. Launched in November of 2017, the podcast has grown to over 100 episodes with a guest list that is a testament to the diversity of knowledge and opinions that represent the broader Bitcoin community. Expanding his growing list of humaninterest recordings, documentaries and films Peter has recently launched theDefiancepodcast andDefianceTV.

Caitlin Long

Avanti Financial Group, Founder & CEO

22-year Wall Street veteran who has been active in bitcoin and blockchain since 2012. In 2018-20 she led the charge to make her native state of Wyoming an oasis for blockchain companies in the US, where she helped Wyoming enact 20 blockchain-enabling laws. From 2016-18 she jointly spearheaded a blockchain project for delivering market index data to Vanguard as chairman and president of Symbiont, an enterprise blockchain start-up. Caitlin ran Morgan Stanley’s pension solutions business (2007-2016), heldsenior roles at Credit Suisse (1997-2007) and began her career at Salomon Brothers (1994-1997). She is a graduate of Harvard Law School (JD, 1994), the Kennedy School of Government (MPP, 1994) and the University of Wyoming (BA, 1990).

Hunter Horsley

Bitwise Asset Management, CEO

Hunter Horsley is Chief Executive Officer of Bitwise Asset Management. Prior to Bitwise, he was a product manager at Facebook, working on advertiser products including the multibillion-dollar sponsored content ecosystem and ad breaks in videos. Before Facebook, Horlsey was a product manager at Instagram, responsible for multiple advertising products generating several hundred million dollars of revenue. He is a graduate of the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania, with a B.S. in economics. Recently, Horsley was named a member of Forbes’ 2019 “30 Under 30” list.

Luke Gromen

Forest For The Trees, Founder & President

Luke Gromen has 25 years of experience in equity research, equity research sales, and as a macro/thematic analyst.He is the founder and president of macro/thematic research firm FFTT, LLC, which he founded in early 2014 to address and leverage the opportunity he saw created by applying what clientsand former colleagues consistently described as a “unique ability to connect the dots” during a time when he saw an increasing “silo-ing” of perspectives occurring on Wall Street and in corporate America.FFTT caters to institutions and sophisticated individuals by aggregating a wide variety of macroeconomic, thematic and sector trends in an unconventional manner to identify investable developing economic bottlenecks for his clients.Prior to founding FFTT, Luke was a founding partner of Cleveland Research Company, where he worked from 2006-14.At CRC, Luke worked in sales and edited CRC’s flagship weekly thematic research summary piece (“Straight from the Source”)for the firm’s clients.Prior to that,Luke was a partner at Midwest Research, where he worked in equity research and sales from 1996-2006.While in sales, Luke was a founding editor of Midwest’s widely-read weekly thematic summary (“Heard in the Midwest”) for the firm’s clients, in whichhe aggregated and combined proprietary research from Midwest with inputs from other sources.Luke Gromen holds a BBA in Finance and Accounting from the University of Cincinnati and received his MBA from Case Western Reserve University.He earned the CFA designation in 2003.

Meltem Demirors

CoinShares, Chief Strategy Officer

Meltem Demirors is Chief Strategy Officer of CoinShares, an investment firm that manages billions in assets on behalf of a global investor base, and is a trusted partner to investors and entrepreneurs navigating the digital asset ecosystem. Meltemoversees the firm’s managed strategies group and its New York office and leads corporate development. Previously, she was part of the founding team of Digital Currency Group. As a veteran investor in the digital currency space, she has invested in over 250 companies in the ecosystem. Meltem is passionate about education and advocacy, and teaches the Oxford Blockchain Strategy Programme and co-chairs the WEF Cryptocurrency Council.