COVID-19, The Fed, and Corporate Zombification

Published on
June 25th, 2020
48 minutes

COVID-19, The Fed, and Corporate Zombification

Investment Ideas ·
Featuring David Rosenberg

Published on: June 25th, 2020 • Duration: 48 minutes

David Rosenberg of Rosenberg Research joins Real Vision managing editor, Ed Harrison, to break down his view of the economy, financial markets, and their direction over the next six to eighteen months. Rosenberg notes the success of working from home and the negative implications it has for commercial real estate – both residential and office. He points to internet infrastructure, consumer staples, healthcare, and big tech as sectors that are poised to do well over the next year and predicts that elevated personal savings rates, a reduction in capital expenditures, and a credit downgrade cycle will contribute to weaker GDP numbers for 2020. He argues that the Fed has enabled the zombification of the corporate sector though artificially low interest rates, and Rosenberg and Harrison consider whether the actions of the Fed could trigger insolvency and liquidity crises by suppressing price discovery in the market. Rosenberg also touches on Japan, Canada, and gold in the context of COVID-19 and monetary policy responses to the pandemic. Filmed on June 23, 2020. To register for Rosenberg Research's free trial, visit



  • RK
    Roger K.
    28 June 2020 @ 09:56
    RV has gone to s*** now. Its quality has gone down tremendously. I remember the days we only had one 30min piece a day with a higher quality. Now too many pieces with more than hours or longer. Return on time spent is very low. You becomes information over-loaded and confused.
    • AG
      Asim G.
      28 June 2020 @ 15:57
      It's true but they are a business and have to make money. That's also why they went to the tiered pricing with the "super exclusive" private advisory one... the key to using RV is to watch the recent stuff sparingly, and watch the classics like the Felix Zulauf interview over and over and over....
    • AF
      Andre F.
      29 June 2020 @ 03:37
      You choose what you want to watch, you choose how much or how little you should watch. You accept that your time must go to a variety of things and manage this fact appropriately. When you go to the gym do you need to use every piece of equipment in order to extract "value"? No, you go in do what you need to do and then leave.
    • HS
      Henry S.
      30 June 2020 @ 19:50
      Deden interview was excellent. A few other were good. I liked Cuban interview a lot. Oil & Gas expert is good, too. Otherwise not a lot is worth time spent. Harrison does a fairly good job interviewing. Rupal is an annoying interviewer. He needs to practice keeping his mouth closed more. I have been a big fan of Rosenberg, but his insights to the pandemic are not convincing. His read of the S.F. Fed report on pandemics is weak. He's just following headlines on the pandemic, in my opinion, unlike his usual sharp insights. ( US infections are spiking, but not the deaths. It remains that only elderly are affected).
  • ME
    Michael E.
    29 June 2020 @ 13:45
    Truly amazing, those they know & have a passion like Raul talk very simple language that everyone understand. Suck as Dr. Lacy Hunt, David Rosenberg, and 5 more. Those who make it complicated, they don’t eat, breath, sleep investment/ economy.
  • IH
    Ian H.
    28 June 2020 @ 06:48
    Quote of the month for me "We just had a non-essential recession". I then spent the next 10 min lecturing the kids about getting an essential job in later life.
  • DD
    Daniel D.
    26 June 2020 @ 02:43
    Why would you want female labor force participation when you don't have nearly enough kids?
    • JO
      JOHN O.
      26 June 2020 @ 16:27
      So employed woman don't have kids? I'll have to let my wife know and try to figure out where these young humans came from.
    • JO
      JOHN O.
      26 June 2020 @ 16:30
      Or, we could welcome immigrants. They sure have helped the US and other countries in the past AND you don't have to deal with changing diapers and paying for college 😉
    • SS
      Stephen S.
      26 June 2020 @ 22:56
      Downvote if you want but it’s true.
    • AF
      Andre F.
      27 June 2020 @ 03:28
      Daniel, quite simply: an increase of female participation in the Japanese labour market is not going to create an opportunity cost of missed births, in births that were already NOT happening anyway.
    • SO
      Sercan O.
      27 June 2020 @ 20:37
      Great! Another highly intelligent man deciding what is right or wrong for women! He clearly understands women have to choose between work and making babies. How could they think otherwise? :( Reading these comments even at RV makes me sick. I feel like a total failure that my daughter still has to grow up in a world full of people like this and she will still have to face this stupid discrimination!
  • LP
    Lauri P.
    26 June 2020 @ 18:36
    Interesting points on Japan, yet hard to align that with what I see living in Tokyo. Monetary / policy side can arguably be called success, but that's only part of the puzzle. The human side (demographics, huge amount of red tape, working style that kills creativity, rigid labour markets) will make sure the economy won't be growing fast any time soon. There have definitely been some policy changes to ease immigration, especially on the labour intensive sectors, yet the overall population is still shrinking fast. The un-attractive working culture combined with a very difficult language and generally racist culture will make filling the gap difficult. Maybe the point was that rest of the world will get as stagnant as Japan is, re-rating equities in rest of the world to similar valuations? In that case could work as a pair-trade, but hard to make a case for a long on it's own as a whole. Individual (export oriented) companies could definitely be attractive though.
    • AB
      Alastair B.
      27 June 2020 @ 12:08
      Look at what happened to the Japanese economy during the Korean War when the US was actively trying to contain China in Asia. If this happens again, then Japan will benefit.
    • LP
      Lauri P.
      27 June 2020 @ 18:37
      On a relative basis, Japan could indeed benefit from the tensions with China. Still, during the Post war period Japan had many other tailwinds, including a highly efficient "war economy", favourable demographics and none of the zombified companies. Hard to see the economy booming on absolute terms now.
  • HS
    Henry S.
    26 June 2020 @ 23:04
    I read the San Francisco Fed research on the long term affects of pandemics, as referenced by Mr. Rosenberg. Frankly I struggle to see the applicability to the current pandemic. The said Fed paper presumed 510,000 UK deaths and 2.2 MM US deaths. These figures are not even in the ballpark for what we are witnessing. The Fed paper also surmised that in the aftermath of past pandemics there was depressed investment opportunity due to excess capital per unit of surviving labour. Well, adjust the much lower actual deaths in the current pandemic for the elderly (people not actually in the workforce), and the result puts the current pandemic further out of the ballpark.
    • RI
      R I.
      27 June 2020 @ 12:41
      Give it time. The US is doomed. Let’s hear your take when Houston Texans football stadium is full of covid patients in a matter of weeks.
  • HR
    Humberto R.
    25 June 2020 @ 22:45
    Japan is one of the most racist countries on earth. And it succeeds because they have been able to keep "others" out. If going forward that will be changing, as I believe it will, then they will eventually face the same internal problems that we are facing here. Good luck with that Japan. Human nature doesn't change despite all the whining and wishing from so many.
    • AF
      Andre F.
      27 June 2020 @ 01:49
      Your claim about their racism is something that I think an honest person must consider as a possibility at least. I've thought about it myself over the years due to a number of reasons that I won't get into. I used to take it for granted that the Japanese are racist, now I'm not so sure. It's a fine line sometimes between seeing how things actually are and seeing things how you are, so to speak. I feel like I need to go to Japan for a trip, see things for myself, as much as that is possible. It will take a generation, at least, until they have very serious social problems from racism /prejudice against future immigrants. Maybe they will handle it better than one might expect.
    • AF
      Andre F.
      27 June 2020 @ 03:02 An article from the FT in line with the matters that Humberto has raised. It points to the need to address easily predictable immigration problems and the need to undertake Japan's immigration project carefully and prudently. Surprisingly Abe is starting out the project with sloppiness and dishonesty, an opposition MP one Yuichiro Tamaki is trying to repair Abe's irresponsibility and deception before they take too deep a root. The comment section of this FT article is just as important to read as the article itself. It goes into matters of xenophobia, racism, Japan as a closed society, feeling unwelcome in Japanese society as well as others who say the Japanese are gracious and welcoming.
  • RA
    Robert A.
    27 June 2020 @ 00:02
    Does anyone have an opinion on whether the etf “FLJP” would be a good vehicle for Japan investment? The performance hasn’t been great, but the .09 cost and it’s breath of Cap investments are compelling despite their modest AUM. Any help on a couple of good low cost Japan equity etfs would be appreciated (I’d like to steer clear of EWJ and DXJ).
  • MI
    Miloslav I.
    26 June 2020 @ 00:22
    I heard that James Rickards had a conversation about MMT with some well known MMT representative. I also heard that RV doesnt want to publish the interview. Im asking WHY?
    • Am
      Abdul m.
      26 June 2020 @ 02:40
      If that’s true . I would like to know why also.
    • AF
      Andre F.
      26 June 2020 @ 09:10
      James Rickards is a "smooth talker" (practically monotone, which is useful when trying to hypnotize people in to drinking Kool-aid) who is repeatedly wrong on his gold forecasts, and repeatedly wrong on his fantasy catalysts for moving the gold and precious metals prices higher, and repeatedly wrong on his very dramatic geo-political conflict forecasts. I believe it was back in 2018 when he was citing sanctions against Iran and tinderbox tension in the South China Sea as the catalysts that were imminently going to shoot gold to 5k at least. He's repeatedly wrong and an alarmist (and an LTCM alum) and yet continues to have a following. If Rickards never spoke another word in the finance/investing world, I don't think it would be a loss at all.
    • TS
      Timothy S.
      26 June 2020 @ 11:12
      A copy of Rickard's June 25 tweet on the subject @JamesGRickards: By the way, I taped a lengthy debate on MMT versus one of its leading advocates for the fakers at @RealVision. They're MMT groupies. They refused to air that segment. Guess I won.
    • mM
      marc-andre M.
      26 June 2020 @ 13:16
      Agree.. I would like some kind of reply from RV. Maybe it's an misunderstanding.
    • DB
      Douglas B.
      26 June 2020 @ 22:23
      It’s probably because real vision realizes that he offers zero value to their subscribers
    • DS
      David S.
      26 June 2020 @ 22:49
      Since Mr. Rickards can be seen on YouTube anytime of the day or night, why is this a problem? There is a YouTube live interview of Mr. Rickards hosted by Mr. McCullough of Hedgeye on April Fool's Day 2020 with about 60,000 views. DLS
  • DB
    Donald B.
    26 June 2020 @ 18:09
    Ed Harrison, you did a magnificent job with David Rosenberg. Great to see you two old friends doing what you do best and we are all the better for it. Thank you.
  • RM
    Roberto M.
    26 June 2020 @ 04:43
    David is of course great but RV what a great format. Ed you're a great interviewer. You let the man speak, you ask great questions, listen. This doesn't exist anywhere else on the internet or TV. Anywhere else someone would be cutting in every 2 minutes with some stupid setup question.
  • mB
    marc B.
    26 June 2020 @ 01:58
    Rosenberg is one of my favorites! I’m increasing gold exposure. This is going to get real mid July!
  • Ab
    Anthony b.
    26 June 2020 @ 01:41
    fascinating - occasional comment about New Zealand economy would be appreciated
  • JD
    Jonathan D.
    25 June 2020 @ 21:37
    Great interview.
  • DS
    David S.
    25 June 2020 @ 20:48
    Solid and enjoyable interview. I wish Mr. Rosenberg continued success. It is ironic that many people talk about the economic Japanization of Western economies. Stagflation is a risk to all. The West, however, is in a much deeper hole than Japan is now. As Mr. Koo explained, the Japanese corporations took the opportunity to decrease corporate debt dramatically while US corporate executives were buying back massive amounts of stock. During the same time, the Japanese government built infrastructure all over Japan. (I remember a quote that every fishing village in Japan has a new port.) Many Western governments, corporations and individuals are highly leveraged while infrastructure in the US, Germany and other countries need major rebuilds. Stagflation in the West will start with high debt, poor infrastructure, high unemployment along with corporate and personal bankruptcies. Japan has the additional advantage of being able to supply both Asia and the West easily. The American consumer has been the basis of world GDP growth. It will take a long time for world trade to recover. I agree that Japan will be a good place to invest, but only as the world economy picks up. DLS
  • VK
    Vaclav K.
    25 June 2020 @ 19:01
    Nothing new was said. Or did I miss something?
  • MT
    Mark T.
    25 June 2020 @ 18:38
    Mr. Rosenberg is a great interview. Great job Ed.
  • DB
    Dan B.
    25 June 2020 @ 08:59
    Ed you are an epic interviewer mate, I always love your videos and interactions
    • PW
      Pratik W.
      25 June 2020 @ 17:35
      Absolutely, His interview style is infectious. I think I am learning how to interview along with learning finance. Thanks Ed.
  • Jv
    Joël v.
    25 June 2020 @ 16:45
    Great interview, as almost always. These days Zombies eat inflation... Zombie Credit and (Dis-)Inflation: Evidence from Europe NBER Working Paper No. 27158 Issued in May 2020 '...estimates suggest that without a rise in zombie credit post 2012, annual inflation in Europe during 2012-2016 would have been 0.45 percentage points higher.'
  • pk
    philip k.
    25 June 2020 @ 13:09
    Do you think Asia ex Japan will come out of all this much better ? They spent less, less unemployment less disease and dysfunction.
    • Jv
      Joël v.
      25 June 2020 @ 16:43
      Well, aren't SE Asia and India often picked as the most likely growth areas the coming years?
  • SS
    Stephen S.
    25 June 2020 @ 16:35
    There’s good and bad to the policies David mentions regarding Japan. We’ve kinda been running that experiment for decades here in the America and Europe. It’s gotten us here.
  • BK
    Ben K.
    25 June 2020 @ 16:29
    Excellent interview. I especially appreciate the information on the Canadian Economy. Thank you!
  • SS
    Stephen S.
    25 June 2020 @ 15:46
    Fed intervention doesn’t just not benefit lower income people it hurts them. It pushes up housing prices to an unaffordable level and it never lets financial assets drop so perhaps they could buy in. It’s not surprising young people like Socialism.
  • KT
    Kai T.
    25 June 2020 @ 14:58
    Great interviewee, great interviewer. This is why I subscribe to Real Vision.
  • CS
    Connor S.
    25 June 2020 @ 12:12
    amazing insights, thank you both
  • MC
    Michael C.
    25 June 2020 @ 11:00
    When the Central Bank becomes the lender of first and only resort what happens to the banks? The Central Bank is competing with them and will put them out of business. Prof Richard Werner is right. SIBs (banks) will be nationalised and lead to the sovietisation of the banking system and the economy. Gold and crypto are the escape mechanisms. How does the death of the banking system end? Is it a deflationary pop or a slow grind into zombie world because debts wont be forgiven?
  • GH
    Gregory H.
    25 June 2020 @ 09:34
    Not just aging population in Japan... everyday you wake up, there are 1,000 less Japanese people that the day before, and the negative growth is accelerating...
  • PU
    Peter U.
    25 June 2020 @ 09:14
    David is the best in our time!
  • JB
    Jamie B.
    25 June 2020 @ 08:36
    David has a unique ability to take a Macro outlook and break it down to a granular level. That's a unique & valuable ability. Thanks, Ed & David.
  • BA
    Bob A.
    25 June 2020 @ 07:13
    David is always one of my favorite. He is clear and straight-forward. I have no doubt that years from now there will a slew of books written on the sweeping changes in economic and social behavior thath will significantly reshape the way consumer and companies operate. These developments are just starting and I have to believe that Neil Howe wakes up excited and maybe slightly concerned every moring. I think watching and understanding how that develops will be the key to investing success over the next decade and beyond.

Mark Yusko

Morgan Creek Capital Management, Co- Founder, CEO, & CIO

Mark Yuskois the Founder, CEO and Chief Investment Officer of Morgan Creek Capital Management. He is also the Managing Partner of Morgan Creek Digital Assets. Morgan Creek Capital Management was founded in 2004 and currently manages close to $2 billion in discretionary and non-discretionary assets. Prior to founding Morgan Creek, Mr. Yusko was CIO and Founder of UNC Management Company (UNCMC), the Endowment investment office for the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Before that, he was Senior Investment Director for the University of Notre Dame Investment Office.Mr. Yusko has been at the forefront of institutional investing throughout his career. An early investor in alternative asset classes at Notre Dame, he brought the Endowment Model of investing to UNC, which contributed to significant performance gains for the Endowment. The Endowment Model is the cornerstone philosophy of Morgan Creek, as is the mandate to Invest in Innovation. Mr. Yusko is again at the forefront of investing through Morgan Creek Digital Assets, which was formed in 2018. Morgan Creek Digital is an early stage investor in blockchain technology, digital currency and digital assets through the firm’s Venture Capital and Digital Asset Index Fund.Mr. Yusko received a BA with Honors from the University of Notre Dame and an MBA in Accounting and Finance from the University of Chicago.

Anthony Scaramucci

SkyBridge Capital, Founder & Co-Managing Partner

Prior to founding SkyBridge in 2005, Scaramucci co-founded investment partnership Oscar Capital Management, which was sold to Neuberger Berman, LLC in 2001. Earlier, he was a vice president in Private Wealth Management at Goldman Sachs & Co. In 2016, Scaramucci was ranked #85 in Worth Magazine’sPower 100: The 100 Most Powerful People in Global Finance. In 2011, he received Ernst & Young’s “Entrepreneur of the Year –New York” Award in the Financial Services category. Anthony is amember of the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), vice chair of the Kennedy Center Corporate Fund Board, a board member of both The Brain Tumor Foundation and Business Executives for National Security (BENS), and a Trustee of the United States Olympic & Paralympic Foundation. He was a member of the New York City Financial Services Advisory Committee from 2007 to 2012. In November 2016, he was named to President-Elect Trump’s 16-person Presidential Transition Team Executive Committee. In June 2017, he wasnamed the Chief Strategy Officer of the EXIM Bank. He served as the White House Communications Director for a period in July 2017. Scaramucci, a native of Long Island, New York, holds a Bachelor of Arts degree in Economics from Tufts University and a Juris Doctor from Harvard Law School.

Michael Saylor

MicroStrategy, Co-Founder

Mr. Saylor is a technologist, entrepreneur, business executive, philanthropist, and best-selling author. He currently serves as Chairman of the Board of Directors and Chief Executive Office of MicroStrategy, Inc. (MSTR). Since co-founding the company at the age of 24, Mr. Saylor has built MicroStrategy into a global leader in business intelligence, mobile software, and cloud-based services. In 2012, he authoredThe Mobile Wave: How Mobile Intelligence Will Change Everything, which earned a spot onThe NewYork TimesBest Sellers list. Mr. Saylor attended the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, receiving an S.B. in Aeronautics and Astronautics and an S.B. in Science, Technology, and Society.

Alex Saunders

Nugget's News, Founder & CEO

Alex Saunders is the founder and CEO of Nugget’s News, a digital media company focused on all things crypto. Alex has been captivated by cryptocurrency since 2012 and in 2017 he began educating globally on the benefits of cryptocurrency and how to safely acquireit. Nugget’s News has been listed as a top-20 podcast by Business Insider, ShapeShift and Lifehacker and has over 120k YouTube subscribers with 9 million total views.Alex is also heavily focused on his cryptocurrency education platform Collective Shift which currently serves over 4,500 members. provides his unique perspectives by utilising his expertise in fundamental analysis, technical analysis and market sentiment. He is working towards his mission of making it easier for everyone to understand the financial world.

James Putra

TradeStation Crypto, Inc., Sr. Director of Product Strategy

James helped launch TradeStation Crypto’s offeringwhichutilizesa true online brokerage model that self-directed investors and traders have come to expect for equities, futures,and foreign currency markets. He is a reputed crypto asset specialist and blockchain thought leader focused on helping people find innovativeways to participate in this space. He is active in the blockchain community with speaking engagements, TV appearances and mentoring.James has over 15 years of experience in the Fintech industry.

Raoul Pal

Real Vision, Co-Founder & CEO

Raoul Pal is the Co-Founder and CEO of Real Vision, the world’s pre-eminent financial media platform, which helps members understand the complex world of finance, business, and the global economy. Real Vision members also have access to Real Vision Crypto, a cryptocurrency and digital assets video channelwatched by over 80,000 people.In addition, Raoul has been publishing Global Macro Investor since January 2005 to provide original, high quality, quantifiable and easily readable research for the global macro investment community hedge funds, family offices, pension funds and sovereign wealth funds. It draws on his considerable 31 years of experience in advising hedge funds and managing a global macro hedge fund. Global Macro Investor has one of the very best, proven track records of any newsletter in the industry, producing extremely positive returns in eight out of the last twelve years. He retired from managing client money at the age of 36 in 2004 and now lives in the tiny Caribbean island of Little Cayman in the Cayman Islands. Previously he co-managed the GLG Global Macro Fund in London for GLG Partners, one of the largest hedge fund groups in the world. Raoul moved to GLG from Goldman Sachs where he co-managed the hedge fund sales business in Equities and Equity Derivatives in Europe. In this role, Raoul established strong relationships with many of the world’s pre-eminent hedge funds, learning from their styles and experiences. Other stop-off points on the way were NatWest Markets and HSBC, although hebegan his career by training traders in technical analysis.

Peter McCormack

What Bitcoin Did, Journalist

Peter McCormack is a full timejournalist/podcaster covering topics such as Freedom, Human Rights, Censorship and Bitcoin. Peter created and hosts the What Bitcoin Did Podcast, a twice-weekly Bitcoin podcast where he interviews experts in the world of Bitcoin development, privacy, investment and adoption. Launched in November of 2017, the podcast has grown to over 100 episodes with a guest list that is a testament to the diversity of knowledge and opinions that represent the broader Bitcoin community. Expanding his growing list of humaninterest recordings, documentaries and films Peter has recently launched theDefiancepodcast andDefianceTV.

Caitlin Long

Avanti Financial Group, Founder & CEO

22-year Wall Street veteran who has been active in bitcoin and blockchain since 2012. In 2018-20 she led the charge to make her native state of Wyoming an oasis for blockchain companies in the US, where she helped Wyoming enact 20 blockchain-enabling laws. From 2016-18 she jointly spearheaded a blockchain project for delivering market index data to Vanguard as chairman and president of Symbiont, an enterprise blockchain start-up. Caitlin ran Morgan Stanley’s pension solutions business (2007-2016), heldsenior roles at Credit Suisse (1997-2007) and began her career at Salomon Brothers (1994-1997). She is a graduate of Harvard Law School (JD, 1994), the Kennedy School of Government (MPP, 1994) and the University of Wyoming (BA, 1990).

Hunter Horsley

Bitwise Asset Management, CEO

Hunter Horsley is Chief Executive Officer of Bitwise Asset Management. Prior to Bitwise, he was a product manager at Facebook, working on advertiser products including the multibillion-dollar sponsored content ecosystem and ad breaks in videos. Before Facebook, Horlsey was a product manager at Instagram, responsible for multiple advertising products generating several hundred million dollars of revenue. He is a graduate of the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania, with a B.S. in economics. Recently, Horsley was named a member of Forbes’ 2019 “30 Under 30” list.

Luke Gromen

Forest For The Trees, Founder & President

Luke Gromen has 25 years of experience in equity research, equity research sales, and as a macro/thematic analyst.He is the founder and president of macro/thematic research firm FFTT, LLC, which he founded in early 2014 to address and leverage the opportunity he saw created by applying what clientsand former colleagues consistently described as a “unique ability to connect the dots” during a time when he saw an increasing “silo-ing” of perspectives occurring on Wall Street and in corporate America.FFTT caters to institutions and sophisticated individuals by aggregating a wide variety of macroeconomic, thematic and sector trends in an unconventional manner to identify investable developing economic bottlenecks for his clients.Prior to founding FFTT, Luke was a founding partner of Cleveland Research Company, where he worked from 2006-14.At CRC, Luke worked in sales and edited CRC’s flagship weekly thematic research summary piece (“Straight from the Source”)for the firm’s clients.Prior to that,Luke was a partner at Midwest Research, where he worked in equity research and sales from 1996-2006.While in sales, Luke was a founding editor of Midwest’s widely-read weekly thematic summary (“Heard in the Midwest”) for the firm’s clients, in whichhe aggregated and combined proprietary research from Midwest with inputs from other sources.Luke Gromen holds a BBA in Finance and Accounting from the University of Cincinnati and received his MBA from Case Western Reserve University.He earned the CFA designation in 2003.

Meltem Demirors

CoinShares, Chief Strategy Officer

Meltem Demirors is Chief Strategy Officer of CoinShares, an investment firm that manages billions in assets on behalf of a global investor base, and is a trusted partner to investors and entrepreneurs navigating the digital asset ecosystem. Meltemoversees the firm’s managed strategies group and its New York office and leads corporate development. Previously, she was part of the founding team of Digital Currency Group. As a veteran investor in the digital currency space, she has invested in over 250 companies in the ecosystem. Meltem is passionate about education and advocacy, and teaches the Oxford Blockchain Strategy Programme and co-chairs the WEF Cryptocurrency Council.