“The Death Knell for Leverage”

Published on
June 11th, 2020
32 minutes

“The Death Knell for Leverage”

Investment Ideas ·
Featuring Darius Dale

Published on: June 11th, 2020 • Duration: 32 minutes

Darius Dale, managing director at Hedgeye, returns to Real Vision to discuss with Real Vision's managing editor Ed Harrison the macro headwinds that investors face. Using Hedgeye's quad model, Dale reviews how growth and inflation are slowing rapidly at the same time, and Dale discusses the types of assets that perform well in this environment. Dale analyzes current valuations in light of current business conditions and places them within the context of the capex and credit cycles. Dale and Harrison also discuss the prospect of a "double-dip" recession as fundamentals continue to deteriorate but central bank policy loses its efficacy. Filmed on June 8, 2020. Find Dale's charts here: https://rvtv.io/2YkC3Yo



  • IP
    IDA P.
    5 July 2020 @ 09:15
    Really excellent
  • PE
    Paul E.
    17 June 2020 @ 20:41
    Don't watch this when you're sleepy or distracted because you'll get left behind in a hurry! Great session! Thanks.
  • MD
    Matt D.
    17 June 2020 @ 05:10
    Great interview - thanks Ed and Darius. I really enjoyed it. Some great insights in an action packed 32 mins. Normally someone who speaks very quickly is hiding a lack of knowledge, but it is the opposite with Darius. Impressed with his depth of knowledge and clarity of conveying those ideas. Both were able to consider the political risk (US election) looming for the markets without bias and with clarity. A few strong, clear points to take away and consider. Thanks again.
  • GB
    Griffin B.
    15 June 2020 @ 22:55
    I really enjoyed this interview, but I feel like the Fed losing the long-end of the YC cannot happen for, as Luke Gromen mentions, national security reasons. We simply cannot afford to have the YC increase at the tail end due to our debt levels. If YC steepening did occur the Fed could step in with YCC and would likely be able to limit their bond purchases in the process. That is the most likely view IMO.
    • GB
      Griffin B.
      15 June 2020 @ 22:59
      Important that inflation and currency debasement is exactly what the Fed WANTS.
  • CL
    Christopher L.
    13 June 2020 @ 06:40
    I find it kinda funny how they were "deep quad 4" telling you to not buy shit that went up, keep buying dollars etc now, as the market is turning, they advocate buying the stuff that's already rallied 30-40% buy tech? Fuck. QQQ down 9% in 3 days. Now they're short dollars? Lol market have been net short since February.
    • VS
      Vasil S.
      14 June 2020 @ 10:42
      You're clearly not a Hedgeye subscriber or if you are, you have next to no understanding of how their process works.
    • TE
      Thomas E.
      15 June 2020 @ 15:41
      Keep in mind they (Hedgeye) have been long dollars, treasuries, and gold since Oct 2018. Care to know the returns those assets have generated. Plus if you'd had got out of stocks in January when they called the deep Quad 4 and again invested in Gold, Treasuries, and Dollars your portfolio is looking really nice right now (which is why my and my wife's 401(k) is positive YTD unlike the S&P). You are picking a 2 month window and basing performance on that? Let's see what happens from now until early next year (2nd wave corona virus, election risk, more defaults, trade wars, etc).
  • TE
    Thomas E.
    15 June 2020 @ 15:33
    Quadzilla! Good to see you on Real Vision.
  • NP
    Nick P.
    11 June 2020 @ 08:45
    Hedgeye is not an investment or a research firm. They're internet influencers and make all their money from subscriber revenue and silly entertainment. As a firm, they're toxic and delete any negative comments on their platform and block mildly negative remarks (and questions) on Twitter even from paying customers. Their goal is to sign up new subs each month to replace the enormous churn of subs. The company president, Keith McCollough, sued a former customer for backtesting their process (the quads) and confirming it delivered zero alpha. The case settled before trial. Since 2008, the Hedgeye crew, including Darius, have abused customers and rival financial media using rude and offensive language (I guess this adds to the show for small minds). They consistently make false claims of picking the top or bottom of every cycle. Almost every month, Keith has claimed his net worth is at an all-time high but never provides proof. Darius has tried to stand up to Keith, but after a few days, he always falls into line. He knows there is too much money to be made from selling the useless framework/media show to gullible new subscribers online. We must call out the bullshit in financial media. Please do your research, but I think you'll find the comments above are accurate and fair. If you're a fan of Keith and Darius, awesome, I hope you get at least a few laughs for the money you give them.
    • Dv
      Daniel v.
      11 June 2020 @ 08:56
      You are absolutely right Tokyo T. Hedgeye is an awful company, I have subscribed to their services for more than 5/6 years, but couldn't stand it anymore. They are very offensive towards to whole industry, calling everybody names. Even their paying subscribers are laughed at by Keith McCullough, he does that openly in their Macro Show. I think that some day Darius will leave the company, he has a lot of potential and is a genuine guy. That's why I like Raoul and the guys from RV. There are very humble and open minded.
    • JM
      Jennifer M.
      11 June 2020 @ 10:13
      I find some of Raouls “pontificating” offensive but he is infinitely more intelligent than I. Keith is obnoxious sometimes but the guy has made me money. I understand the friction that people feel that is OK but I don’t have to like these people I pay them for a service.
    • Dv
      Daniel v.
      11 June 2020 @ 10:35
      Of course, you pay them to make money but in those 5/6 years I haven't made more money with them than I would have using any diversified portfolio. For me, it's just not worth the hassle, daytrading and being blocked and called a newbie or try'ler.
    • TM
      The-First-James M.
      11 June 2020 @ 11:07
      I ca appreciate that Keith is not everybody's cup of tea. I've been a subscriber to the Hedgeye Macro Show and Risk Range products for about the last 18 months. Two facts here: 1. They called the recent crash almost perfectly. 2. They've played the bull markets in both Gold and Treasuries almost perfectly so far, since November 2018. 3. Keith had an incredible run playing the short side in March and April. I notice people have been quick to put the boot in on Twitter over the last couple of weeks when he's had a shitty run on the short side, but Keith has not tried to disguise that. Not directly afiliated to Hedgeye, so when I say the above and the following as a Gen Xer, it's 100% my opinion. Keith can be abrasive and will put the boot into subscribers who ask what he believes to be asinine questions. Seriously though, some people need to harden up and take it with a thicker skin rather than getting all precious about being offended. Will help you deal with life when it throws its many turds at you. Just a thought.
    • Dv
      Daniel v.
      11 June 2020 @ 11:20
      He literally said early April that you would have to be mad for buying the market now and kept shorting it aggressively, resulting in big losses. Compare that with his small 1% and 2% gains, you need a lot of them now to make up the losses. Next to that, most of their subscribers can not short all these stocks because of margin restrictions, so you would have to use options. Try making money on a 1-2% move with options and compare it with the results you make on those big losses. Been there, done that. No more Hedgeye for me.
    • TM
      The-First-James M.
      11 June 2020 @ 11:47
      Yeah, they did not called the March bottom as a feasting opportunity. The quad process would have got you on the right side of the moves in Gold and Gold Miners though, not to mention Bitcoin and Treasuries. I'd also note that with the VIX rising, there is absolutely no guarantee that the March low was THE Bottom. Personally, I'm happy to pay for a process that prioritises risk management over FOMO. I'd also note now that with StoolePresident and his army of followers buying up almost anything that moves, there's a lot of emotional money now in this Market that will panic easily when something goes wrong.
    • Dv
      Daniel v.
      11 June 2020 @ 11:53
      I agree. And if this process works for you, great!
    • JM
      Jennifer M.
      11 June 2020 @ 12:34
      @Danieel V time is important. If you subscribed in 2018 you haven’t had to worry about the stock market because you have large gains in gold/bonds. Timing as Darius said is important. If someone subbed after the attention in March it was probably because their stocks were down -30% and were therefore trying to make it back. Key take away Keith is abrasive and you don’t like that, OK don’t sub to the macroshow and just follow the calls. Like Raoul with “buy bonds wear diamonds” same with Keith bonds and gold, I had zero exposure to equities and most Long term subs had small exposure. Each to their own. Good luck out there chaps.
    • FG
      Flavio G.
      11 June 2020 @ 13:00
      I can't agree more with you Tokyo. Didn't know the lack of alpha on the backtesting. I'm not surprised at all! In other videos from Hedgeye, I specifically asked about this. You are absolutely right in calling BS when it's BS. Tired of guys calling tops and bottoms when in fact they have miserably failed to call anything ... and then sell it to the naïve !
    • SB
      Stewart B.
      11 June 2020 @ 13:13
      I'm a paying subscriber of Hedgeye. I plan to renew. They have a process which has worked well in the past, up until the most recent few months. This is inevitable for a company that publishes trades. It is a tough game. You're going to have bad months and quarters.
    • TM
      The-First-James M.
      11 June 2020 @ 18:04
      Hey Stewart B, it's not even not worked for the last few months. It's more like the last couple of weeks, and not all aspects of it have failed; only really Keith's short trades in Real Time Alerts.
    • Dv
      Daniel v.
      11 June 2020 @ 20:26
      Sorry guys, maybe this is just me but I just don't get it. I have had my own business for 25+yrs, I have had periods where I could not pay my staff, no money for my family. But I worked through it and it worked out. Why in this fucking world would I let a somebody called Keith McCullough call me a newby and try'ler. Even if I he would make me a standard 20% per year (which he is off by around 70%), why would I let anybody call me names and laugh at me. Maybe it's me, I will never accept it, I have my pride.
    • MA
      Muhammad A.
      11 June 2020 @ 21:37
      Hedgeye's real time alerts dumped into an excel spreadsheet fails to beat S&P500 over long periods - in other words ones gets lower returns with lower vol
    • TM
      The-First-James M.
      12 June 2020 @ 12:56
      Muhammad A, what were the volatility of those returns though, and over what kind of long periods? Can you be more specific. Personally, I'd hate to be suffering a massive drawdown with the S&P500 if I suddenly found I desperately needed the cash that I no longer had because of the drawdown. Strangely enough, big market drawdowns tend to occur during recessions, when most people are more likely to have personal liquidity issues and need to get their hands on cash. It is all well and good to state the mantra that market returns are superior for those with the intestinal fortitude to be able to hold through the drawdowns and volatility, but many people do not have this kind of discipline/pain tolerance, and many more they suddenly find themselves facing a personal cash crunch during a big drawdown; thereby becoming forced sellers at the lows. Everybody is a long term investor in a raging bull market - not so much once they've had their teeth kicked in by a rampaging bear market. Just a thought...
    • SS
      Shanthi S.
      13 June 2020 @ 15:22
      They’ve made me money.
    • PN
      PJ N.
      14 June 2020 @ 21:44
      Tokyo sound like either a disgruntled employee or a competitor. I have been a Hedgeye sub for more than 12 months and while there are definitively issues, you cannot fault their market timing, or in fact, their overall understanding of what makes markets tick. People should be careful before buying a full Hedgeye sub, that is for sure (I followed them for 12 months before committing), because there is a bit of assumed knowledge & risk ranges can be improved. However, the comments I see from Tokyo & Daniel v should be viewed with some serious suspicion.
    • KG
      Kos G.
      15 June 2020 @ 10:08
      Hedgeye sub here! Agree with Tokyo T. What I don't like about Keith and his Macro Show bravada: when his trade is up 1% he usually makes tons of money, since he of course bought two-weeks-out options. But when his trade loses 1%, it's usually "nah, just 1% on a small tiny bit of capital, never mind". Miraculously, no options this time. Even though, I do not follow his signals, I still appreciate his speeches on navigating FOMOs, cawbells, fading emotions, etc. For people in doubt, you have to realize that his business is to sell subscriptions, so adjust your expectations accordingly.
  • tc
    thomas c.
    12 June 2020 @ 09:36
    I always think of Keith and Dale as the Preacher and the Professor. Great data analysis but in practice in their retail portfolios they are terrible managers. ETF Pros is a P.O.S and trade ideas almost as bad. Continually closing out trades at losses and carry many other loosers. Can't understand why they don't put more intelligence into it. They are screwing the people they claim to educate
    • TM
      The-First-James M.
      12 June 2020 @ 12:33
      How long did you subscribe to ETF Pro?
    • RE
      Ramy E.
      13 June 2020 @ 03:31
      You want to manage VIX between 20-80 using a $40 a month product (ETF Pro)? Come on.
    • CH
      Connor H.
      13 June 2020 @ 23:07
      True, on RTA it is very hard to get into the trade and out of the trade when they do, even with their new app. However, risk ranges and investing ideas are well worth it. It is irritating however when Keith changes course in the middle of the trading day then tells you later and says see I told you so. Also true, that I was itching to by energy stocks when they totally tanked, but hedgeye predicted they would go even lower, which they did not do, and missed out on a very good rally.
    • CP
      Chakrit P.
      14 June 2020 @ 12:10
      It's crazy that you want people to nail everything right everytime. If you subscribed since 2017-2018 you will not say this.
  • VS
    Vasil S.
    14 June 2020 @ 10:48
    A LOT of 'Old Wall' heads on RV by the looks of things!
  • SH
    Stephen H.
    13 June 2020 @ 11:23
    Wow. That was unreal. Thank you!!
    • PS
      Paul S.
      13 June 2020 @ 21:03
      Super interview, two top minds at work.
  • SH
    Sahil H.
    12 June 2020 @ 14:05
    Lots of people here seem really sour about Hedgeye. Not sure why. I realize Keith can be a bit abrasive from time to time but also I don't blame him given how abrasive some of his followers can be (as far as I can see on twitter). I've been a subscriber for the last couple months and I love Keith and the rest of the teams analysis in the macro show. I think the biggest issue people have is not being a subscriber of their full package that they offer. I find there is a REALLY good market analysis balance between the content on RV and Hedgeye. Would highly recommend for those that can afford the subscription of both.
    • TM
      The-First-James M.
      12 June 2020 @ 14:49
      When Keith's short term macro views start to align with Raoul's longer term ones, I've learned it is wise to REALLY pay attention.
    • SH
      Sahil H.
      13 June 2020 @ 09:51
      good advice. Yeah It seems like both are very good at what they do but have very different processes. So I can imagine getting some confluence of trading ideas between both means there is a good chance of it playing out big time.
  • SC
    Sejong C.
    13 June 2020 @ 04:27
    A summary at the end, like the old investment ideas / trade ideas is missing. Good interview.
  • sh
    steve h.
    13 June 2020 @ 02:31
    great interview. I really respect both these guys. Hedgeye has made me and saved me alot of money. Thanks
  • TZ
    Tibor Z.
    11 June 2020 @ 15:16
    So basically sell your stocks. I am getting out of gold stocks as well. Was hammered with the rest of the stock market in March. Taking profits! I expect gold stocks to fall with the rest of the market by the next down move.
    • JM
      John M.
      11 June 2020 @ 16:44
      Why would gold stocks go down if gold is going up?
    • TM
      The-First-James M.
      11 June 2020 @ 18:00
      John M, because they're equities and not Gold, and therefore don't always behave the same way - as those of us who held onto them during the March lows can testify from first hand experience.
    • AW
      Angela W.
      11 June 2020 @ 22:11
      It’s interesting because Raoul quotes Homestake Mining doing very well historically, (despite the market falling around it) however Rick Rule, my go to gold guy, when asked specifically, agrees that when stock markets sell off, so too do gold equities. However that said, the well managed ones recover much faster, as they have massively increasing cash flow, leveraged to the gold price, (and in many cases no debt) These fundamentals will make them top performers.
    • JJ
      Jacob J.
      12 June 2020 @ 08:52
      Gold equities are high beta and gold did go down rapidly for a brief period of time which caused the miners to get cut in half. Cross asset class (treasury and gold) volatility was the leading indicator for that. I held them from 12/2018 and then sold them all almost at the top days before they crashed but didn’t have the stomach to buy them back at the bottom. Won't make that mistake again... IF the opportunity even presents itself again.
    • TM
      The-First-James M.
      12 June 2020 @ 12:40
      Not sure why my earlier response in this thread got down votes for just stating a fact. I've held Gold equities since 2010 in varying position sizes- through both the pleasure and the pain. It is a fact that Gold equities do not always track the Gold price. Anybody who clings to the belief that they MUST do so "because it's logical" is either inexperienced, naive, or religiously wedded to their Gold stocks along with their Gold (a very dangerous thing to do; been there, done it, got the "I blindly trusted and invested in Peter Schiff's opinions because he was right in 2008" T-Shirt). Be open to the fact that Markets work in ways that are not always logical - particularly equity markets!
    • TZ
      Tibor Z.
      12 June 2020 @ 19:37
      If there will be one more opportunity and I believe so gold stocks will be crushed and bounce back fast! If not? Well, in that case I have a few excellent base metal miners and other retail stocks. I buy when I am going to see a very tempting valuation!
    • TZ
      Tibor Z.
      12 June 2020 @ 19:37
      Keeping quads in mind of course!
  • CW
    C W.
    12 June 2020 @ 16:05
    That Trump could want to "perpetual a market event" rather than "upside economic activity" so he is able to pin the socialist label on Biden is an intriguing possibility I've never thought about. Interesting A high quality interview overall. Well done and thank you, Ed & Darius!
  • DL
    Dan L.
    12 June 2020 @ 13:29
    Perhaps the most coherent discussion I’ve heard yet concerning Fed/Fiscal policy and how/when we get to an inflationary dollar. Thanks guys.
  • RT
    R T.
    11 June 2020 @ 09:17
    Good interview. Lot of things bounced above my head :). How much are their returns compared to other portfolio types? I believe in a simple, poor mans macro portfolio also called as Permanent portfolio which based on four macro environment (inflation,deflation,recession,prosperity) which seems to kicks all high sounding mumbo-jumbo portfolios in the long run. It gives a good night sleep. A 25% allocation in gold, long term bonds, cash and stocks. Check out how Huge Hendry is praising the Permanent Portfolio here in this interview with George. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U44_auRtR78&feature=youtu.be&t=3725 Here is the comparison of the Permanent portfolio after the crash and big bounce with all the other famous portfolios. https://portfoliocharts.com/2020/06/08/welcome-to-the-big-bounce/
    • JM
      Jennifer M.
      11 June 2020 @ 10:09
      Hedgeye subscription would help with that drawdown. Have you seen Christopher Coles Dragon portfolio? He adds a fifth component Volatility
    • RT
      R T.
      11 June 2020 @ 10:45
      @JenniferM Yes I have seen Christopher Coles dragon portfolio. Its indeed interesting. I have found no easy way to replicate the long volatility and commodity trends part as a retail investor. I am too small to be a accredited investor :)
    • TM
      The-First-James M.
      11 June 2020 @ 11:41
      For retail access to volatility trading strategies, there's a CEIC listed in the UK called BH Macro that is actually a wrapper to the Brevan Howard Hedge Fund; one strategy of which incorporates Volatility Trading. They've had a good crash and post-crash period. There are listings in GBP, EUR and USD. From memory, the ticker for the USD listing is BHMU, although please check this.
    • AR
      Alexander R.
      11 June 2020 @ 15:35
      You might want to up gold to 50% at the expense of long bonds We are at the end of long term debt cycle once in 80-100 years event Bonds have low yield anyway and we are in the process of currency debasement No to st that you will not make money in bonds next year but for next 10 years you should get out of bonds This is not regular times it is very important to understand it
    • RT
      R T.
      11 June 2020 @ 16:12
      @Alexander R. The entire premise of the permanent portfolio is based on the accepting the fact that I as a investor don't know anything about the dynamic macro economic changing environment. Thus I carry ingredients for all seasons even some of that ingredient are painful to hold. Long bonds does work great in a deflationary environment like this. The long term bonds are the main ingredients the safeguards the portfolio in the deflationary environment due to the role of bond convexity. By moving out of long term bonds, we are saying that our portfolio is not going to experience any deflationary pressure in the future. More info on the bond convexity and how it plays a important role in this current environment of low rates. https://portfoliocharts.com/2019/05/27/high-profits-at-low-rates-the-benefits-of-bond-convexity/
    • AR
      Alexander R.
      12 June 2020 @ 00:57
      So I totally understand the utility of the long term bonds, it is been major part of "all weather portfolio " by Ray Dalio and anyone who bought into long term bonds years ago made equity like returns The problem is now world has to much debt, and it is in Central Bank DNA not to reapet 1929, so they will print and print and print Now a short period of deflation is still possible with real yeld actually in positive territory and bonds will do fine Now if you think beyond 2020-2022 think what stagflation will do to long term bonds ? Maybe yield curve control by Fed might give you a way out with limited loses, maybe ? My take you hide in gold/silver Let them inflate out of debt ( not advocating for money printing , just stating the obvious) and than in a few years get back into bonds, once they offer better risk reward
    • TM
      The-First-James M.
      12 June 2020 @ 12:50
      Alexander R, I would personally endorse hiding in Gold, but certainly not in Silver. The latter is a speculative asset for trading only IMO; not long term ownership. I'm with IKN Mark here: https://incakolanews.blogspot.com/2020/06/silver-vs-gold-one-chart-makes-current.html I notice some of Silver's semi-religious Internet newsletter sales force - highly active on the web in 2011/2012 - are now starting to spring back into life. Take this as a warning - not a long term investment opportunity. Silver is a trade, not a long term investment; unless you're into investment sado-masochism. I say this as a holder of a large amount of Silver bullion coins purchased predominantly in 2010 during the run-up to $50 in 2011, and then in 2012 during what I hadn't realised was the process of a Silver bust at the time. Don't make my mistake. Learn from it. By all means, trade Silver. I would just caution against owning it long term - its price has a history of round-tripping...
  • KC
    Kirk C.
    12 June 2020 @ 12:49
    Great discussion
  • AA
    Aymman A.
    11 June 2020 @ 13:08
    Terrific interview. Good insights. I like his approach that only the near future is predictable. I agree that this “bounce” Trying to predict multiple turning points down the path is sheer arrogance. While I find Keith to be abrasive and just not informative, I think Darius is highly intelligent and thoughtful.
    • GH
      Gregory H.
      11 June 2020 @ 15:13
      I actually find Keith's abrasiveness refreshing
    • RM
      Robert M.
      11 June 2020 @ 15:24
      I am on the other side of Gregory on this one. I enjoyed Keith's interview on RV. But his shtick on Hedgeye wears me out and it is why I am not a subscriber. Appreciate that some people like that approach but too Cramer like for me.
    • JJ
      Jacob J.
      12 June 2020 @ 09:00
      I think much of the reason we enjoy analysis from Darius more than Keith is because he looks further ahead and has a narrative. Keith mainly focuses on math and super short time frames which can be boring and repetitive and somewhat difficult to grasp sometimes. Overall I think they complement each other well.
    • Am
      Alex m.
      12 June 2020 @ 12:27
      I like when he pretends he does not want or need retail clients and their dumb questions!
  • SF
    Scott F.
    12 June 2020 @ 05:16
    Would be interested to hear Darius elaborate more on the "Wall St is socialist " claim - sounds intriguing! Great interview.
    • PW
      PETER W.
      12 June 2020 @ 10:01
      As a HE sub as well, I believe he is referring to the recurrent bailouts for the (top) 1% as a form of socialism.
  • DW
    Daniel W.
    12 June 2020 @ 09:17
    Excellent. Have to play this one at 1x speed, Darius guns it.
  • HS
    Henry S.
    11 June 2020 @ 15:57
    The recent debacle at Hedgeye with Darius saying the U.S was momentarily in Quad 1 and Keith deciding to go with a Quad 4 framework has really knocked my confidence in their services. Keith often talks about taking opinion and feeling out of the process and doing what the math and framework tells you but on this occasion he deviated from his own data. I don't think I'll be able to regain my trust in them.
    • TM
      The-First-James M.
      11 June 2020 @ 17:59
      When did Darius say the US was in Quad 1? Was that on one of the Call segments?
    • TC
      Tim C.
      11 June 2020 @ 18:39
      I've had some of the same feelings. I think part of the problem is that they have so many different research offerings and unless you get them all it is tough to follow all the thought patterns. I don't subscribe to the institutional level and supposedly they discussed it on the call (which I do subscribe to) but I don't remember it ever coming up. I love what they do and they helped me save a lot of money over the last few years but it seems like they really missed a great tradable rally over the last few weeks. If we go to new lows it wont matter but I've got $6+ trillion reasons that isn't likely. But what do I know?
    • SH
      Shane H.
      12 June 2020 @ 06:50
      Henry S., new subscriber to HE since the Raoul and Keith conversation late March. I'm a bit irritated as well given the recent swift shifts/inconsistencies and generically incorrect overall view recently on some big calls. (It doesn't help when Darius and Keith are stumbling recently between everything from Quad 1 to 2 to 3 near term -- any "monkey" knows that.) But I'm defending them and their analysis, I think. Sure, I want them to clarify, so please do Darius and/or Keith. But the models overall are Rate of Change. The near term Risk Ranges are recent trends. In the last couple months, the Hedgeye RoC models on growth and inflation have flipped on a short term basis more than once due to giant swings in data (I presume), so their typical (ideal) smooth-ish sine wave is abnormal from a bigger picture cycle. At least that is my take. I think that is what constitutes the discrepancy. This isn't a normal cycle (in "smoothness"), and I presume a mini-cycle within the bigger cycle would present contrary indicators on a short term basis. I'm just typing out loud, but given the rapid change of demise, rebound, temp. data, etc., I'm just assuming the abnormal and inconsistent data sets explain the confusion. No excuses from my end, as it sucks and is confusing, but everything from the jobs data (which was recognized and admitted as incorrect) points to the inconsistency of reliability on RoC basis. So I'm giving the benefit the doubt, even though I agree wholeheartedly with your point. Every data point is anomalous over any charting period at present, so I think that adds to the confusion as everything RoC may purport to be positive but is still now worse than anything ever seen in history, other than the last couple months. Confusing in any model. I'm just guessing that is the discrepancy with HE. But totally agree, they should clarify as it seems necessary. For something in their model, should be clarified, even if needed to be changed more often in current circumstances. My two cents.
    • JJ
      Jacob J.
      12 June 2020 @ 08:40
      Darius cleared this up on twitter. It was simply conflicting signals which rarely happens and KM's are usually correct anyway. Keith sticks with the big sine curve so as to not confuse people too. Based on the Q in The Macro Show you can tell a lot of people are scared cause they chased a move and don't take the time to learn things on their own. Although his style of shorting super fast for tiny gains on the bounce doesn't make sense me.. way too hard for most to pull off. Its just takes some time to learn how to incorporate their process into a trading style you’re comfortable with. No process is perfect unfortunately, but theirs is damn consistent.
  • DP
    Duane P.
    11 June 2020 @ 18:13
    Why is oil recommended over gold in quad 3 stagflation? That doesn't make sense. Why recommend a commodity heavily dependent on growth which is the opposite of what you get in stagflation vs a purer inflation hedge like gold? We can look back to stagflation back in the 70's and gold did really well. The only reason oil did as well as it did was because of the embargo, not inflation per se. Gold just seems like the safer, more reliable play in this scenario.
    • TC
      Tim C.
      11 June 2020 @ 18:35
      I might posit that oil is more inversely correlated to the dollar and gold is more inversely correlated to real rates(?) Also the 70s is a tough comp to today I think in that the macro environment is so very different (globalization) just my two cents though
    • JJ
      Jacob J.
      12 June 2020 @ 08:28
      The most common quad 3 scenarios aren’t accompanied by such massive destruction of growth. The varying rates of change of growth and inflation make for nuances in asset allocation. These are rather unusual market conditions.
  • JP
    Jeffrey P.
    12 June 2020 @ 05:14
    Darius great job!!!
  • mb
    michael b.
    12 June 2020 @ 03:38
    Yes! More “Investment Ideas”!!!
  • JS
    James S.
    12 June 2020 @ 03:18
    Great interview. Really appreciated the structure outlined and how it helps think about a framework.
  • AK
    Andrew K.
    12 June 2020 @ 03:16
    Good job guys. These two work well together.
  • MC
    Michael C.
    12 June 2020 @ 02:48
    Excellent interview. And love the 30 minute format. Most people can say what they need within 30 minutes (or less). If the macro policy cliff is real (and much of it is mechanistic) , what are the bulls seeing in 2H? If we are talking of financial repression, then time to get Russell Napier back on!
  • BC
    Brente C.
    11 June 2020 @ 18:44
    Informative interview. Mr. Dale highlighted the slowing late-cycle trend already occurring pre-COVID, thus resumption of that trend even under the most favorable COVID scenario playing out would still result in a slowing ROC long-term trend. That said, the overwhelming impact on risk assets of continued Treasury/Fed coordination is very difficult to fade regardless of the data.
    • LP
      Lynn P.
      12 June 2020 @ 02:08
      Good point. Unfortunately All anyone, includingDarius and Ed, can do is speculate about the impact of policy. Seems reasonable to assume not much on the fiscal side, although I think it more likely that Trump give the Dems what they want in exchange for they give him what he wants, and the Fed monetizes the cost. Maybe time to have Jeff Snider back on RealVision as today’s interview on MacroVoices he questioned whether the reflation pump by Powell was not working. Darius questioned whether YCC could work in the US, and Snider’s analysis is that QE is not increasing money, only bank reserves. Corporate borrowing is not financing growth projects, but only increasing balance sheet liquidity, more of a deflationary sign.
  • DS
    David S.
    11 June 2020 @ 20:58
    After the second viewing I am even more impressed with Mr. Dale's grasp and rational delivery of so much information. Mr. Dale made it quite clear we are jumping into the vortex this summer. The virus and medical world will fight it out with The Opening - sounds ominous. The political side will do the same with much less predictability - more ominous. I see no reason to change my bunker mentality toward any of the markets. The virus and politics have us in their grip. Both are unpredictable. I would like to see Mr. Dale interviewed in August to make sense of economy, markets and politics before the election. Thanks. DLS
    • LP
      Lynn P.
      12 June 2020 @ 01:59
      Second for an August interview
  • LP
    Lynn P.
    12 June 2020 @ 01:58
    Strong performance by Darius. For me, particularly so near the end, where he maintained his discipline to note that it would be disingenuous (I believe that was his word) to imply he could predict when we get past deep quad 3 (basically call a bottom). Instead, investors should focus on what he has strong conviction about, namely, that the next several quarters are likely to be far worse than the conventional wisdom is headlining (and Minuchin and Powell are pumping). Defensive positioning is the call, if I understand where Darius and Hedgeye stand.
  • JH
    Joel H.
    12 June 2020 @ 01:09
    Really like Darius and the framework of the Quads that Hedgeye brings.
  • mB
    marc B.
    12 June 2020 @ 00:34
    Darius came out on fire!!!!
  • DR
    Derrick R.
    11 June 2020 @ 23:25
  • AW
    Angela W.
    11 June 2020 @ 22:24
    Ed, thank you so much for interviewing Darius. I am a Hedgeye subscriber, because I love Darius’s work. Have been waiting in vain for an update from him on Hedgeye. Thrilled to have it now at Real Vision. Total respect to both of you.
  • DM
    Dominic M.
    11 June 2020 @ 21:57
    Really excellent conversation, guys—thank you.
  • AP
    Adam P.
    11 June 2020 @ 21:23
    Great stuff, DD! The Hedgeye guys never disappoint.
  • ML
    Mehdi L.
    11 June 2020 @ 19:10
    Loved this interview, and the Quads framework. On this interview, slides played an important role because they included excellent information and data points. I wish we could have the option to download the slide to read them along the discussion. I kept on putting the video on pause to read them. THANK YOU!
    • MW
      Max W. | Real Vision
      11 June 2020 @ 19:34
      Slides are included in the PDF version of the transcript which is available for download on your computer.
    • RS
      Roger S.
      11 June 2020 @ 20:58
      Use a capture program like FastStone Capture, pause the video and capture the image. Then you can keep it up while you continue to watch. Also has the advantage you can zoom the slide to be able to read it more easily.
    • ML
      Mehdi L.
      11 June 2020 @ 21:08
      Thanks Max - this is great! (thanks Roger too!)
  • DS
    David S.
    11 June 2020 @ 20:21
    I still find the word snapback, that many investors and commentators use, has no quantitative or temporal value. What is going to snapback is often left to context. If you want the word to have meaning say the stock market will snapback 10% in 4Q2020 or the GDP will snapback 5% in the 3Q2020 or the Tesla will snapback about 10% in the next few weeks. These statements have meaning as snapback gives the direction. Not quantifying snapback allows for so much misunderstanding. Without some type of magnitude and time component, the word snapback is only a quarter of an idea - What, When, Direction and Magnitude. The interviewer should ask how much do you think the stock market is going to snapback this quarter if he/she wants to inform the listener. Otherwise the statement is just a verbal pause without much meaning. Which is ok if that is the intent of the person. DLS
  • VJ
    Victor J.
    11 June 2020 @ 19:36
    • KW
      Ken W.
      11 June 2020 @ 20:20
      I was thinking the same thing!
  • RL
    Ross L.
    11 June 2020 @ 20:14
    Darius, this is Ross Lovell. If you ever want to leave your current job, look me up. I'm in the membership database there, and I would welcome an opportunity to hire you. Get in touch at the very least.
  • DS
    David S.
    11 June 2020 @ 19:08
    Solid interview for perspective and time frames. I was preoccupied during parts and will watch again. Although I like the four-quadrant setup, for the rest of the year the only two stories that will count are COVID-19 and politics. The comment about Senator McConnell, a lot of double consonants CC,NN and LL great for doublespeak - is very interesting. Senator McConnell normally follows the truer path of the administration thinking. It never occurred to me that a president would want to go into a re-election campaign trying to hurt the economy and blame it on the other party. When reviewing the news, it looks more like Senator McConnell is looking for spending measures to help the reopening the economy and not stimulus checks to individuals This is more in line with President Trump's messaging. DLS
  • MT
    Mark T.
    11 June 2020 @ 18:25
    Mr. Harrison and Mr. Dale, two men who's opinion I value greatly. Appreciate the excellent discussion and look forward to the next one!!
  • JH
    Jesse H.
    11 June 2020 @ 17:03
    Fantastic stuff. Vintage Darius Dale - some of those most thoughtful and intelligent commentary on markets I’ve seen all year long. Trust Darius to bring home the bacon! Thank you to Ed as well!
  • RM
    Robert M.
    11 June 2020 @ 15:22
    Whether you agree or disagree with his points, well presented. I tend to agree and like his perspective for setting up your portfolio for the future and not be so focused on FOMO today.
  • FG
    Flavio G.
    11 June 2020 @ 12:53
    Guys, I'd like to draw your attention to Robin Hood people performance as depicted on this tweet: https://twitter.com/zck/status/1270861920564723717 It helps in bringing some context to the people commenting on the terrible day Robin Hood investors are having. Cheers
    • TM
      The-First-James M.
      11 June 2020 @ 15:12
      Anybody can look like a genius in an uptrend. Days like today will be a test of their character and intestinal fortitude though. On this note, fighting talk from Davey here: https://mobile.twitter.com/stoolpresidente/status/1271076533151715329
  • RS
    Ruben S.
    11 June 2020 @ 09:17
    why have "we lost 1mio jobs for good"? can you elaborate on the reason? is it because you assume profound change in ppls habits which requires economical adjustments? or other reasons?
    • JM
      Jennifer M.
      11 June 2020 @ 10:05
      “For good” is a hell of a long time, I think he probably meant for this cycle.
    • RS
      Ruben S.
      11 June 2020 @ 12:47
      cycle is already over as we got into recession... what i dont understand is, whats the driver this time for jobs not to come back as quickly as they left? i get that its not going to be globally synchronized but as soon as economies re-open you should theoretically re-hire every fired worker UNLESS, you see deep disruptions in the economy caused by change of practices and behavior from economic agents. (and i m not talking abt the compagnies which were operating with 105 workers instead of 100 because job market was tight so they were afraid of firing ppl and have some who would leave and be then understaffed)
    • GV
      Gabriel V.
      11 June 2020 @ 13:38
      Many small businesses, especially those in the hardest-hit sectors and geographies, will not be able to profitably re-open, and will close for good. They don't have enough cash flow to survive a 3-4 month shutdown
    • RS
      Ruben S.
      11 June 2020 @ 13:45
      if they close "only" because they didnt have enough cash or lets say they were to leveraged. Then other businesses will replace them as i dont see banks or other financing channels requesting businesses to have enough cash to survive pandemic.
  • RM
    Russell M.
    11 June 2020 @ 13:43
    I am a Hedgeye subscriber too. I like their framework. It's a trading oriented site. Not my thing. But still the site is very useful. Lot's of fundamental stock analysis too.
  • jg
    jesse g.
    11 June 2020 @ 12:20
    Amazing interview. I thank you both!
  • SS
    Shanthi S.
    11 June 2020 @ 08:14
    Love Darius! Great interview. Jam packed, as Benoit said below. Nice to hear Hedgeye’s mid to longer term view articulated.
  • BL
    Benoit L.
    11 June 2020 @ 07:29
    Excellent discussion and very insightful content .... so jam packed with information that I had to watch it twice, back to back. I agree that you need to bring Darius back in late Q3/early Q4. Late Q2/Q3 is likely to be a very interesting period for sure when the economic reality sets in. Q4 might be as interesting, if not more, due to the politics at play then, more so if Trump losses the election. One thing certain about Trump is that he is not a good looser, so buckle up for 3 months of power transition chaos if that scenario plays out.
  • MR
    Mahesh R.
    11 June 2020 @ 06:28
    First !

Mark Yusko

Morgan Creek Capital Management, Co- Founder, CEO, & CIO

Mark Yuskois the Founder, CEO and Chief Investment Officer of Morgan Creek Capital Management. He is also the Managing Partner of Morgan Creek Digital Assets. Morgan Creek Capital Management was founded in 2004 and currently manages close to $2 billion in discretionary and non-discretionary assets. Prior to founding Morgan Creek, Mr. Yusko was CIO and Founder of UNC Management Company (UNCMC), the Endowment investment office for the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Before that, he was Senior Investment Director for the University of Notre Dame Investment Office.Mr. Yusko has been at the forefront of institutional investing throughout his career. An early investor in alternative asset classes at Notre Dame, he brought the Endowment Model of investing to UNC, which contributed to significant performance gains for the Endowment. The Endowment Model is the cornerstone philosophy of Morgan Creek, as is the mandate to Invest in Innovation. Mr. Yusko is again at the forefront of investing through Morgan Creek Digital Assets, which was formed in 2018. Morgan Creek Digital is an early stage investor in blockchain technology, digital currency and digital assets through the firm’s Venture Capital and Digital Asset Index Fund.Mr. Yusko received a BA with Honors from the University of Notre Dame and an MBA in Accounting and Finance from the University of Chicago.

Anthony Scaramucci

SkyBridge Capital, Founder & Co-Managing Partner

Prior to founding SkyBridge in 2005, Scaramucci co-founded investment partnership Oscar Capital Management, which was sold to Neuberger Berman, LLC in 2001. Earlier, he was a vice president in Private Wealth Management at Goldman Sachs & Co. In 2016, Scaramucci was ranked #85 in Worth Magazine’sPower 100: The 100 Most Powerful People in Global Finance. In 2011, he received Ernst & Young’s “Entrepreneur of the Year –New York” Award in the Financial Services category. Anthony is amember of the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), vice chair of the Kennedy Center Corporate Fund Board, a board member of both The Brain Tumor Foundation and Business Executives for National Security (BENS), and a Trustee of the United States Olympic & Paralympic Foundation. He was a member of the New York City Financial Services Advisory Committee from 2007 to 2012. In November 2016, he was named to President-Elect Trump’s 16-person Presidential Transition Team Executive Committee. In June 2017, he wasnamed the Chief Strategy Officer of the EXIM Bank. He served as the White House Communications Director for a period in July 2017. Scaramucci, a native of Long Island, New York, holds a Bachelor of Arts degree in Economics from Tufts University and a Juris Doctor from Harvard Law School.

Michael Saylor

MicroStrategy, Co-Founder

Mr. Saylor is a technologist, entrepreneur, business executive, philanthropist, and best-selling author. He currently serves as Chairman of the Board of Directors and Chief Executive Office of MicroStrategy, Inc. (MSTR). Since co-founding the company at the age of 24, Mr. Saylor has built MicroStrategy into a global leader in business intelligence, mobile software, and cloud-based services. In 2012, he authoredThe Mobile Wave: How Mobile Intelligence Will Change Everything, which earned a spot onThe NewYork TimesBest Sellers list. Mr. Saylor attended the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, receiving an S.B. in Aeronautics and Astronautics and an S.B. in Science, Technology, and Society.

Alex Saunders

Nugget's News, Founder & CEO

Alex Saunders is the founder and CEO of Nugget’s News, a digital media company focused on all things crypto. Alex has been captivated by cryptocurrency since 2012 and in 2017 he began educating globally on the benefits of cryptocurrency and how to safely acquireit. Nugget’s News has been listed as a top-20 podcast by Business Insider, ShapeShift and Lifehacker and has over 120k YouTube subscribers with 9 million total views.Alex is also heavily focused on his cryptocurrency education platform Collective Shift which currently serves over 4,500 members. provides his unique perspectives by utilising his expertise in fundamental analysis, technical analysis and market sentiment. He is working towards his mission of making it easier for everyone to understand the financial world.

James Putra

TradeStation Crypto, Inc., Sr. Director of Product Strategy

James helped launch TradeStation Crypto’s offeringwhichutilizesa true online brokerage model that self-directed investors and traders have come to expect for equities, futures,and foreign currency markets. He is a reputed crypto asset specialist and blockchain thought leader focused on helping people find innovativeways to participate in this space. He is active in the blockchain community with speaking engagements, TV appearances and mentoring.James has over 15 years of experience in the Fintech industry.

Raoul Pal

Real Vision, Co-Founder & CEO

Raoul Pal is the Co-Founder and CEO of Real Vision, the world’s pre-eminent financial media platform, which helps members understand the complex world of finance, business, and the global economy. Real Vision members also have access to Real Vision Crypto, a cryptocurrency and digital assets video channelwatched by over 80,000 people.In addition, Raoul has been publishing Global Macro Investor since January 2005 to provide original, high quality, quantifiable and easily readable research for the global macro investment community hedge funds, family offices, pension funds and sovereign wealth funds. It draws on his considerable 31 years of experience in advising hedge funds and managing a global macro hedge fund. Global Macro Investor has one of the very best, proven track records of any newsletter in the industry, producing extremely positive returns in eight out of the last twelve years. He retired from managing client money at the age of 36 in 2004 and now lives in the tiny Caribbean island of Little Cayman in the Cayman Islands. Previously he co-managed the GLG Global Macro Fund in London for GLG Partners, one of the largest hedge fund groups in the world. Raoul moved to GLG from Goldman Sachs where he co-managed the hedge fund sales business in Equities and Equity Derivatives in Europe. In this role, Raoul established strong relationships with many of the world’s pre-eminent hedge funds, learning from their styles and experiences. Other stop-off points on the way were NatWest Markets and HSBC, although hebegan his career by training traders in technical analysis.

Peter McCormack

What Bitcoin Did, Journalist

Peter McCormack is a full timejournalist/podcaster covering topics such as Freedom, Human Rights, Censorship and Bitcoin. Peter created and hosts the What Bitcoin Did Podcast, a twice-weekly Bitcoin podcast where he interviews experts in the world of Bitcoin development, privacy, investment and adoption. Launched in November of 2017, the podcast has grown to over 100 episodes with a guest list that is a testament to the diversity of knowledge and opinions that represent the broader Bitcoin community. Expanding his growing list of humaninterest recordings, documentaries and films Peter has recently launched theDefiancepodcast andDefianceTV.

Caitlin Long

Avanti Financial Group, Founder & CEO

22-year Wall Street veteran who has been active in bitcoin and blockchain since 2012. In 2018-20 she led the charge to make her native state of Wyoming an oasis for blockchain companies in the US, where she helped Wyoming enact 20 blockchain-enabling laws. From 2016-18 she jointly spearheaded a blockchain project for delivering market index data to Vanguard as chairman and president of Symbiont, an enterprise blockchain start-up. Caitlin ran Morgan Stanley’s pension solutions business (2007-2016), heldsenior roles at Credit Suisse (1997-2007) and began her career at Salomon Brothers (1994-1997). She is a graduate of Harvard Law School (JD, 1994), the Kennedy School of Government (MPP, 1994) and the University of Wyoming (BA, 1990).

Hunter Horsley

Bitwise Asset Management, CEO

Hunter Horsley is Chief Executive Officer of Bitwise Asset Management. Prior to Bitwise, he was a product manager at Facebook, working on advertiser products including the multibillion-dollar sponsored content ecosystem and ad breaks in videos. Before Facebook, Horlsey was a product manager at Instagram, responsible for multiple advertising products generating several hundred million dollars of revenue. He is a graduate of the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania, with a B.S. in economics. Recently, Horsley was named a member of Forbes’ 2019 “30 Under 30” list.

Luke Gromen

Forest For The Trees, Founder & President

Luke Gromen has 25 years of experience in equity research, equity research sales, and as a macro/thematic analyst.He is the founder and president of macro/thematic research firm FFTT, LLC, which he founded in early 2014 to address and leverage the opportunity he saw created by applying what clientsand former colleagues consistently described as a “unique ability to connect the dots” during a time when he saw an increasing “silo-ing” of perspectives occurring on Wall Street and in corporate America.FFTT caters to institutions and sophisticated individuals by aggregating a wide variety of macroeconomic, thematic and sector trends in an unconventional manner to identify investable developing economic bottlenecks for his clients.Prior to founding FFTT, Luke was a founding partner of Cleveland Research Company, where he worked from 2006-14.At CRC, Luke worked in sales and edited CRC’s flagship weekly thematic research summary piece (“Straight from the Source”)for the firm’s clients.Prior to that,Luke was a partner at Midwest Research, where he worked in equity research and sales from 1996-2006.While in sales, Luke was a founding editor of Midwest’s widely-read weekly thematic summary (“Heard in the Midwest”) for the firm’s clients, in whichhe aggregated and combined proprietary research from Midwest with inputs from other sources.Luke Gromen holds a BBA in Finance and Accounting from the University of Cincinnati and received his MBA from Case Western Reserve University.He earned the CFA designation in 2003.

Meltem Demirors

CoinShares, Chief Strategy Officer

Meltem Demirors is Chief Strategy Officer of CoinShares, an investment firm that manages billions in assets on behalf of a global investor base, and is a trusted partner to investors and entrepreneurs navigating the digital asset ecosystem. Meltemoversees the firm’s managed strategies group and its New York office and leads corporate development. Previously, she was part of the founding team of Digital Currency Group. As a veteran investor in the digital currency space, she has invested in over 250 companies in the ecosystem. Meltem is passionate about education and advocacy, and teaches the Oxford Blockchain Strategy Programme and co-chairs the WEF Cryptocurrency Council.