The Deliberate Corporate Strategy to Adopt the Bitcoin Standard

Published on
September 18th, 2020
Duration
121 minutes


The Deliberate Corporate Strategy to Adopt the Bitcoin Standard

The Interview - Crypto ·
Featuring Michael Saylor

Published on: September 18th, 2020 • Duration: 121 minutes

Michael Saylor, chairman & CEO of MicroStrategy Inc., joins Real Vision CEO, Raoul Pal, to discuss MicroStrategy’s major Bitcoin acquisitions. Saylor describes his background, what led up to the creation of MicroStrategy, and its recent push to bring Bitcoin into the corporate world. He explains his first encounter with cryptocurrencies and how his views on it have evolved over the years. Saylor touches on the power and value of Bitcoin and its unique utility of being able to convey “100 million dollars across 100 years.” Finally, Saylor shares how they store the Bitcoin owned by MicroStrategy and the timeline of the investment. Filmed on September 16, 2020.

Comments

Transcript

  • JN
    Jacco N.
    22 October 2020 @ 14:01
    Thanks so much to both for making your brilliant ideas and thoughts digestable for non financials/investors like myself. It is trully a huge source of inspiration and I will keep on following you along the BTC road. Take care and stay safe! J.
  • RB
    Raymond B.
    20 October 2020 @ 10:44
    Please have CEO of Blockfi Zac Prince on the show
  • MW
    Matt W.
    18 October 2020 @ 12:06
    Talk dirty to me: - gold - Bitcoin - one-word .com's
  • JG
    John G.
    20 September 2020 @ 14:39
    Mike is a true hodler. Domains and Bitcoin. Cyberspace scarcity. Cybernetic hornets nests. Few understand... :)
    • MW
      Matt W.
      18 October 2020 @ 11:49
      Short meaningful one-word .com domains, killer asset
  • mg
    matthew g.
    17 October 2020 @ 22:43
    gold is going to lose +80% over the next century? wasn't it $20 in a century ago? Wasn't it $35 in 1970? I thought he was an interesting guest - but unfortunate it turned into a cheerleading session.
  • SG
    Sean G.
    14 October 2020 @ 16:28
    Big likes on this one. Got a membership to watch this video and will keep it waiting for the next!
  • FB
    Fraser B.
    10 October 2020 @ 09:21
    Fantastic, i've watched almost all the Saylor interviews now, brilliant... Maybe i need to sell my gold as well!
  • SG
    Sven G.
    8 October 2020 @ 23:04
    Awesome
  • MR
    Michael R.
    8 October 2020 @ 21:56
    Watershed discussion. We are just waiting for the wooden boat builders to discover steel.
  • RS
    Robert S.
    8 October 2020 @ 12:18
    Glad to see a dedicated crypto channel on Real Vision, keep up the fantastic work guys! Probably one of the best videos I've seen in a long time!
  • CC
    Christian C.
    6 October 2020 @ 03:41
    Learnt a lot during this interview. Steel truly is the perfect building material! Great interview!
  • JH
    Jonathan H.
    5 October 2020 @ 09:47
    Give this a listen. It touches on environmental sustainability, speed of money, and value that is derived from utility. https://open.spotify.com/episode/11xvzfV3m6vOipgFrpnvYj?si=iTSkqq0wSWqqqc4quPCEcA
  • JC
    J.P. C.
    29 September 2020 @ 00:19
    Raoul, can you comment on the environmental implications of proof-of-work. Bitcoin is uselessly burning tremendous amount of energy solving cryptographic problems. This doesn't seem sustainable on a warming planet. Do you have any comment on bitcoins environmental impact, and what alternatives may exist for the ethical investor?
    • PN
      Paco N.
      29 September 2020 @ 17:28
      Bitcoin is the best use of energy that makind ever had. It's true value. And miners are super focused on efficiency, constantly going for sources that would be otherwise wasted (gas flaring for example). Fiat money is costing society a lot more in all forms of harms, including wasted energy in thousands of zombie companies. See: https://medium.com/@danhedl/pow-is-efficient-aa3d442754d3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5JQfZdJLjY https://www.coindesk.com/the-last-word-on-bitcoins-energy-consumption https://www.coindesk.com/energy-giant-equinor-to-cut-gas-flaring-with-bitcoin-mining-tie-up-report https://research.ark-invest.com/hubfs/1_Download_Files_ARK-Invest/White_Papers/ARKInvest_031220_Whitepaper_BitcoinMining.pdf
    • JH
      Jonathan H.
      5 October 2020 @ 09:45
      Give this a listen. It touches on environmental sustainability, speed of money, and value that is derived from utility https://open.spotify.com/episode/11xvzfV3m6vOipgFrpnvYj?si=iTSkqq0wSWqqqc4quPCEcA
  • RF
    Russell F.
    5 October 2020 @ 02:00
    What a mind blowing interview. Well done Real Vision team! This will be looked back on in several decades as seminal. Saylor is the alpha chad.
  • SG
    Steve G.
    22 September 2020 @ 20:54
    This guy seems to be surrounded by people who just agree with whatever he says because a lot of his ideas only sound good at face value. For example, he says gold is a bad store of value because we can simply mine more of it...anyone whos spent any time in the pm market realizes it takes years and years to get a mine up and running and new potential sites are getting harder and harder to find.
    • YR
      Yaniv R.
      25 September 2020 @ 23:41
      No, his point was that if the price of gold will go a lot higher smart people will find ways to mine more and faster just like oil and fracking.
    • JV
      Jay V.
      28 September 2020 @ 15:01
      We have seen mining costs rise into the of the market price of gold in the past.
  • CC
    Christopher C.
    22 September 2020 @ 23:13
    Brilliant interview with a lot to digest. I may have missed it, but does Mr. Saylor mention any personal investment in BTC or just the company?
    • DW
      Daniel W.
      23 September 2020 @ 11:50
      He already told that half of his board was invested in BTC before he pitched to buy 32.000 bitcoin. So, yes he is also invested personally in BTC.
    • JV
      Jay V.
      28 September 2020 @ 15:00
      Saylor owns + or - 70-75% of MSTR, seems like a large personal investment through the corporation.
  • TN
    Travis N.
    28 September 2020 @ 08:22
    This was a very insightful interview and an amazing insight into a very successful person. Totally agree on his view on bitcoins value. Did anyone else find his his view on gold a little confusing (that there is 2% inflation due to the miners producing) doesn't this go against the S2F model?? isn't it that if gold appreciates it more that it is USD (or any fiat currency) depreciating because of inflation?? Gold has stood the test of time when measured against tangible goods (House, suit, etc...) or am i missing something?
  • NG
    Nicolas G.
    19 September 2020 @ 10:37
    Another masterpiece of Raoul and RV. Thank you!!! Michael is another brilliant salesman and history teller, like Raoul. However, despite the many times he mentions he is an MIT engineer, he has not been able to find out about the main technological risks BTC faces: - the threat of Quantum Computing using Shor's algorithm to break its Elliptic Curve Digital Signature Algorithm (ECDSA), - and the weakness of its curve secp256k1. - the almost impossibility of migrating to a Quantum Resistant algorithm, in replacement of ECDSA, without a complete overhaul of BTC. It is a little sad to me to see that RV gives only one side of the history, the crypto hype. And that it does not educate audience about its potential risks, not just from balanced portfolio risk perspective, but also from technological or governmental perspective. Looking to this comments section I see people over-hyped, making irrational investment decissions based on a superior, but biased (in my opinion) narrative, which was just the opposite of what RV was about, EDUCATE people in macro, finances and investing. I am afraid that having so much at stake (irresponsibly long) may not help to bring a balanced view of the risks entailed by owning lots of ECDSA-based cryptos. I hope they do it in the new RV Crypto. In the meantime if anyone is interested in learning more, here a few links: - https://medium.com/the-capital/quantum-resistant-blockchain-and-cryptocurrency-the-full-analysis-in-seven-parts-part-1-daa211565a68 - https://faqq.info/
    • JI
      JWD I.
      19 September 2020 @ 12:48
      Appreciate your concerns. It would be good to have interviews focused on the points you have raised.
    • WV
      W V.
      19 September 2020 @ 13:41
      There's has been a lot of thought and discussion around quantum computing and its impact on bitcoin. In particular the "having so much at stake" comment is saying you don't think Bitcoin as a whole is secure and/or quantum computing is a threat or can't be mitigated. I'd suggest (for anybody) more reading and watching into this topic, but it doesn't seem to be the threat you imply and definitely something that has been considered and is actively considered and monitored. There are known best practices already used to mitigate impact, e.g. don't reuse addresses, HASH160 for a double hash and in particular SHA256 isn't a good match for quantum computing. Antonopolous has some short and easily accessible videos on these topics as well, they are still highly technical but a good place to start: https://youtu.be/wlzJyp3Qm7s https://youtu.be/d4xXJh677J0
    • DB
      Daniel B.
      19 September 2020 @ 13:53
      Yes, RV should do an entire series exploring the risks in great detail.
    • PN
      Paco N.
      19 September 2020 @ 15:04
      Not the "quantum computer" talk again. This has been debunked a ton of times. There are several technical articles discussing why Quantum Computers are not a threat to BTC in any way. This is just FUD. Bitcoin already has some built-in quantum resistance. If you only use Bitcoin addresses one time, which has always been the recommended practice, then your ECDSA public key is only ever revealed at the one time that you spend bitcoins sent to each address. A quantum computer would need to be able to break your key in the short time between when your transaction is first sent and when it gets into a block. It will likely be decades after a quantum computer first breaks a Bitcoin key before quantum computers become this fast. All of the commonly-used public-key algorithms are broken by QC. This includes RSA, DSA, DH, and all forms of elliptic-curve cryptography. Public-key crypto that is secure against QC does exist, however. Currently, Bitcoin experts tend to favor a cryptosystem based on Lamport signatures. Lamport signatures are very fast to compute, but they have two major downsides: The signature would be quite large, at least several kB (40-170 times larger than now). This would be very bad for Bitcoin's overall scalability, since bandwidth is one of the main limiting factors to Bitcoin's scaling. Advances in scalability such as Segregated Witness (the signature is part of the witness) and Lightning will be helpful. At the time that you create each keypair, you would need to set some finite maximum number of times that you can sign with this key. Signing more than this number of times would be insecure. Increasing the signing limit increases the size of each signature even more. Since you are only really supposed to use addresses once, this may not be a huge problem for Bitcoin. A new public-key algorithm can be added to Bitcoin as a softfork. From the end-user perspective, this would appear as the creation of a new address type, and everyone would need to send their bitcoins to this new address type to achieve quantum security. There is zero threat to BTC from QCs. https://twitter.com/jimmysong/status/1150621392674664448 https://www.bitcoinnotbombs.com/bitcoin-vs-the-nsas-quantum-computer/
    • NG
      Nicolas G.
      19 September 2020 @ 19:16
      To W V.: I am afraid I have to dissent with you. You mention that this has been considered. Yes, it has been, almost since the times of Satoshi, but it has not been addressed because this implies an overhaul of BTC that will damage the immutability perception of BTC. When you say 'it does not seem the threat you...' it is your perception not supported with facts. For example the new BTC signature scheme under development (Schnorr) is not quantum resistant and keeps the same old ECDSA curve. Do you know why? Also SHA is not under threat by QC, or not at the same level as ECDSA is: https://faqq.info/if-they-can-break-sha256/ This is another common misconception among the BTC community, as it is the not reuse of addresses, which does not solve the problem either: https://faqq.info/not-reusing-addresses-not-a-solution/
    • NG
      Nicolas G.
      19 September 2020 @ 21:19
      To Paco N.: I am sorry but a ton of times is something subjective. When a BTC developer, whose entire wealth is tied to BTC, says QC does not exists and will not be a threat without giving any evidence, I cannot count it as one time debunked. Reuse of BTC addresses misconception: - https://faqq.info/not-reusing-addresses-not-a-solution/ All of the commonly-used public-key algorithms are broken by QC: - Other problems caused by a QC breaking classical encryption don't change the fact that BTC cryptography will be in serious trouble. Lamport: - Currently Schnorr signature scheme, to replace ECDSA, is the next big thing for BTC and it is not quantum resistant and keeps the same old ECDSA curve. BTC devs can favor whatever they want, another thing is to implement it on BTC. A new public-key algorithm can be added to bitcoin as a soft fork: - Can you tell me which new one you can add, which is Quantum Resistant (QR), but which does not entail a hard fork? - Schnorr is the next in the pipeline and it is not QR. Besides, it uses the old ECDSA curve in order to avoid a hard fork. So BTC core is compromising future security in exchange for low noise among the new holders today, specially those new entrants like Michael Saylor. - Regarding the manual migration of coins (softfork), from a non-QR wallet (ECDSA) to a QR wallet (X) by the coins owners, what you will do with all non-claimed coins, such as satoshi ones or those lost forever? will you burn them, but they still may belong to somebody which has not claimed them yet. You would be legally attacking the property of somebody... the legal implications for the Bitcoin Improvement Proposal promoter are huge, would he dare? By the way, you missed the other common misconception of BTC maximalists, if a QC ever exists, Banks, Internet and everything will be in danger. - Centralized "walled garden" organizations (banks, governments, email providers, etc) will have no problem having their IT departments shut down temporarily and swapping out encryption schemes. Bitcoin does not have a centralized IT department, and there is no way to enforce every single exposed BTC wallet's owner to migrate to a PQ wallet in a timely fashion- especially since some of the large exposed wallets (Satoshi's) that could destabilize BTC if suddenly cracked and liquidated, are perhaps lost, have had no activity in 10+ years. Who will migrate them? Nobody, they are sitting ducks. If you want to believe there is zero threat, fine. But do not block information to others, that are not that knowledgeable as you are, so that they can make their own rational decisions. In any case thank you for the debate. This forms already a sort of more balanced view ;)
    • WV
      W V.
      20 September 2020 @ 14:24
      To Nicolas G.: I don't think my perception is not supported with facts. Note I don't claim (anywhere) bitcoin is currently quantum resistant, but I provide some nuance to your post where it sounds like nobody is aware of quantum computing and the great reckoning is just around the corner. That is (IMO) clearly not the case and I provide some facts to back this up. To me this isn't the place for a highly technical discussion, but anybody interested should definitely do more research, so yes thank you for that suggestion. There are theoretical weaknesses in Bitcoin with regards to quantum computing. These will need to be addressed at some point and they are recognized as such. However currently there is no reason to consider this an irrational investment decision as this is all still very hypothetical... and will be for quite some time.
    • MD
      Matt D.
      27 September 2020 @ 21:44
      Hi Nicolas, Thanks for this discussion. If you are who I believe you are, I appreciate you let your intelligence/arguments do the talking, not your reputation. I am wondering now if you have been working on this pre-Satoshi? Anyway, nice to read your comments. Cheers.
  • JB
    Jakub B.
    27 September 2020 @ 20:09
    Amazing stuff! Thanks
  • PR
    Prashanth R.
    26 September 2020 @ 18:17
    Can someone help me understand real yield or perhaps point me in a direction where I can read/watch to understand it?
    • CM
      Cory M.
      26 September 2020 @ 22:52
      Nominal rate minus inflation rate.
    • PR
      Prashanth R.
      27 September 2020 @ 16:55
      Thanks Cory. What happens in deflation? Real rates go up right?
  • SV
    Soeren V.
    27 September 2020 @ 16:13
    Loving Michael's energy and how he walks us through his learning journey and thought process about bitcoin! I think I've never seen a better rational reasoning of why one should choose BTC over legacy products. Fantastic choice to gain a perspective from the corporate world. Absolutely loved this interview and that's exactly why I signed up for Real Vision! Thanks Raoul, thanks team Real Vision!
  • BN
    Brady N.
    26 September 2020 @ 20:25
    I've always thought of bitcoins price as a gold monetary price void of its utility, remove the atoms from gold and what remains is a belief. It's no longer a commodity but a belief in an agreement or social contract.
  • BN
    Brady N.
    26 September 2020 @ 19:53
    I felt guilty or unsure about looking at COVID in a WWI or II comparison but your explanation of it makes simple yet impactful sense.
  • EW
    Erik W.
    23 September 2020 @ 05:48
    Watching Lex Fridman talk with the founder of Etheruem in this YouTube (https://youtu.be/3x1b_S6Qp2Q) and at 41 minutes they discuss what it would take to create a network to surpass bitcoin’s fault tolerance and he pegs it in the low billions of dollars. Isn’t that a disturbingly Low amount should a sovereign government want to corrupt the system to protect fiat?
    • JS
      John S.
      26 September 2020 @ 07:28
      The thing is if that government does create that network, then it has to be decentralized otherwise why would anyone use it. China are already creating their own digital currency, but outside of Chinese citizens who are forced to use it I don't see why anyone else would ever want to be at their mercy. If any government creates that network, it'll have to convince other governments and citizens to buy into it and use it, while there is a neutral alternative in Bitcoin. Also, Bitcoin is still in its early days, in a few years that cost will have gone up a lot, but that's just a guess.
  • JH
    Joseph H.
    25 September 2020 @ 22:41
    That was fantastic, really entertaining and great through processes. Thanks Michael
  • LB
    Lorenzo B.
    22 September 2020 @ 17:47
    Playing devil's advocate here, pls feel free to bury me under a huge pile of shame and insults There are roughly 300k-350k transactions dealt everyday in BTC (that is let's say the daily number of total transactions for a very small city or large village...) BTC consumes roughly 60 to 70 TWh yearly (that is something like 20% of UK total energy consumption) Now I'm no expert about BTC technology, but I'm curious about couple fo things: 1)how is power consumption correlated with the number of transactions? is it positively correlated? is it positevely correlated but the marginal increase asymptotically shrinking to zero,therefore convergent, or worse a divergent series? 2) the more halvings we have, the higher the price must be in order to keep miners to do their job; but how does that relate again with power consumption. Shouldn't the very last bitcoin to be mined supposed to be worth a value that tends to infinity, and an infinite amount of energy be required to mine it? how sustainable is it? I hope any of this makes sense....
    • OB
      Oliver B.
      23 September 2020 @ 23:13
      Sir, I am irresponsibly long on Bitcoin myself, however, believe that one point you make is one of the most important and overlooked financial aspects of the Bitcoin ecosystem, and the proof-of-work algorithm in general: 60-70 TWh @ $0.05 p/KWh translate into $3 billion electricity costs p.a. Including equipment depreciation, ops costs and profit margins miners need to generate at least $4 – 5 billion p.a. in revenues (by selling Bitcoin they mined into Fiat) to stay in business. Which means the entire network (ceteribus paribus, no difficulty adjustments & no increase in mining equipment-efficiency) requires an annual net-inflow of $4 – 5 billion p.a. (I don't have the real number) in new Fiat, so the BTC price stays the same. If the net-inflow of Fiat is more than that, BTC prices (in the long run) will go up, otherwise they will go down and miners go out of business, thus adjusting the cost-base of the network downwards. Gold isn’t burdened with ongoing costs on its entire existing supply base, only newly minted Gold bears a significant cost. That’s why I think the application of the S2F model for the BTC price prediction is flawed – and I would be very happy to be wrong. I think it is definitely something to take into consideration if you take Michael Saylor's 100 year view: Do you want to pass down an asset to your descendants that will require at least 6 - 7,000 TWh to just stay around?
    • LB
      Lorenzo B.
      25 September 2020 @ 14:43
      Thank you for your thoughts Oliver, that is exactly one of the point that I'm trying to understand. But again, I am no expert so I wish someone with some real technical knowledge could shed some light on the issue between: number of total miners-proof of work-energy consumption-price. to understand the relation between the number of total miners and energy consumption: if I didn't get it wrong, rewards will inevitably go down with halvings, and the number of mining-competitors should adjust according to the marginal profit which is a direct function of energy cost and the price of BTC. As long as price go up, I suppose any number of mining participants at any energy cost is acceptable: in this case we have an energy consumption sustainability issue If price stays the same or doesn't increase enough you will have less participants in the mining activity again taking into account the energy cost constrain: how will that affect the whole network and BTC reliability? And again what happens in the case we see a surging in the total number of daily transactions from todays 300k/350k daily transactions? Maybe RV could do some in-depths on these matters
  • DB
    Daniel B.
    25 September 2020 @ 14:23
    Check out this video from Milton Berg which supports the view that bitcoin is better than commodities https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf4trn7ucGE
  • LB
    Lorenzo B.
    22 September 2020 @ 12:42
    if you holding cash you're not losing 30% of your real value. you're losing 30% in relative value compared to those who were skilfull, brave and lucky enough to buy the march/april dip. that's a different thing from inflation I agree CPI is bad measure, you need some sort of a mix between CPI and asset inflation, but Nasdaq YTD performance, or S&P march-to-date performance cannot be taken as a measure for inflation
    • GB
      Glenis B.
      25 September 2020 @ 03:30
      I think it's all relative. In a year or 2 will we be talking about those "who were skilfull, brave and lucky enough" to buy the 2020 dip?
  • JS
    Jeff S.
    25 September 2020 @ 00:46
    Sorry to be contrarian, but this video was all about traditional investing, or more specifically, all the historical alpha Saylor so proudly shares from his past. Then this tradFi guy stumbles onto to BTC after dismissing it not so long ago, and makes a big trade. Great. I’m glad for any new blood, especially from the traditional finance space. But there is so little value shared here in terms of crypto investing! Maybe move this one out and put it in the section for interviews with smart traders. This is not an interview about crypto, it’s a video about how a successful traditional trader just came to the inevitable realization most smart traders will come to very shortly. Sorry, I’m just really eager for high value content on crypto; a space deeply devoid of the type of valuable insights RV has offered in the traditional markets. I know that is a high calling. It’s a Wild West world sitting on a spinning top in a dark closet of a building with no address. So few are covering the space with anything other than either hype and speculation without numbers, or a geek/tech perspective with altruistic wide-eyed optimism. I want measurable data, analysis, tools... I’m so hopeful it will show up here, even with a sliver of the alpha RV services offer to the tradFi market. My subscription expires in a few days. I, like perhaps a many here, signed up for a trial before your crypto virtual conference. I think we are all hoping to see something in this new channel that would have us sign up again, at any price.
    • GB
      Glenis B.
      25 September 2020 @ 03:22
      I look forward to watching Raoul talk to you when you've created billions of dollars and can buy $425 million of bitcoin at will. In the meantime, I hope you enjoyed your free subscription.
  • MP
    Michael P.
    25 September 2020 @ 00:55
    Sounds like Bitcoin is a riskless investment for the next 100 years. What could possibly go wrong?
  • JG
    John G.
    24 September 2020 @ 20:51
    I think I just wet myself
  • AS
    ANDREW S.
    24 September 2020 @ 20:37
    Didn't think I'd watch the whole video given the 121 minute run time...but loved every minute. Really great talk Raoul & Michael. *Adds to Bitcoin position*
  • GR
    George R.
    24 September 2020 @ 14:06
    Freaking amazing interview. He had tons of energy and I really enjoyed the life story. This guy is great would love to see a follow-up in the future.
  • WM
    Will M.
    22 September 2020 @ 19:28
    Very interesting video if a little more of a monologue than an interview. There is no doubt that Mr Saylor has one of the most interesting histories of anybody previously seen on RVT. I read all the comments below and thought there was some good pushback to Michael's very self assured stance. I agreed with many, possibly most of his points but don't quite agree with him on gold, but that fine! However, to those saying this is the best RV interview ever, I have to disagree. Grant Williams interview with Tony Deden was for me the best ever. I would contrast Mr Saylor's style with Mr Dedens. One is great to have a drink with, the other is a fountain of knowledge and worth spending a day being tutored by. I will let the reader decide which is which.
    • CC
      Charles C.
      24 September 2020 @ 00:38
      Amen to Tony Deden interview but this is close in impact. Lots to think about
  • SW
    Stanley W.
    23 September 2020 @ 17:58
    Really enjoyed this episode. Bullish!
  • JB
    Jose B.
    23 September 2020 @ 10:42
    Top RV interview
  • TC
    Theresa C.
    23 September 2020 @ 03:13
    Great interview, thanks. Saylor very poetic - BC ecosystem "an organic mass feeding off encrypted energy" ! Definitely read a lot of sci-fi .......
  • RM
    Robert M.
    22 September 2020 @ 22:13
    WOW!!
  • PE
    Paul E.
    22 September 2020 @ 21:12
    This was so interesting! Worth every minute!
  • PC
    Philip C.
    21 September 2020 @ 15:14
    I liked this interview. Michael's enthusiasm is obvious, and Raoul did a good job of letting him speak with just the right amount of steering and clarification. That said, I can't say I'm convinced. I own gold and BTC, but they are quite different. Gold is an asset; BTC is a speculation. If I could own only one I'd choose gold every time.
    • WW
      Will W.
      21 September 2020 @ 15:28
      Phillip, I wouldn't go quite as far as you, but I am more in your camp and I have owned some amount of BTC since 2012. I too, still own both and overall have a larger percentage allocation to gold. While gold doesn't have network effects as we typically think of them, I would argue that 5000 years of history and continued central bank buying in large amounts is tantamount to a very strong network effect. The other way to think about it, and I am stealing this from Grant Williams great RV video on gold, just look at the periodic chart of elements. I think BTC very well could supplant gold as the premier store of value, but just feel it will take longer to do so, and at least for the time being am treating it much more in the speculative camp in terms or position sizing and risk management.
    • WM
      Will M.
      22 September 2020 @ 19:19
      Philip, I am with you 100%
  • SM
    Stephane M.
    22 September 2020 @ 12:09
    Pretty good interview and pationate guy BUT: - All his arguments are base on LINEAR thinking...CYCLE anyone?!??! - If you are a shareholder of Microstrategy (-43% over 20 years), you would have been better with bonds ;-)
    • RA
      Robert A.
      22 September 2020 @ 18:59
      But...if the BTC decision works out he might be +143% within 60 months....you bought Microstrategy for his decision making ability (wink).
  • OA
    Olivier A.
    19 September 2020 @ 17:49
    Gold will keep growing at 2%? No it won't - law of diminishing returns (we're making fewer and fewer discoveries). Not even dignifying the question of the new chemistry with an answer. If I buy a house in Florida the property taxes will take the value of my property to 0 over time? 30 minutes later: turns out it's multiplied by 200 in 90 years... I own bitcoin, so not criticizing for the fun of it here, but he was incredibly long-winded, and dropped a lot of nonsense on the way. Problem of having been a CEO for too long and being surrounded by people who always sound interested in your life and never disagree.
    • PT
      Peter T.
      19 September 2020 @ 18:30
      what part of currency debasement don't you get ? The gig is up the voice of authority is over the future will ruled by consensus . Vertical institutions will replaced by Horizontal ones.
    • OA
      Olivier A.
      19 September 2020 @ 18:44
      Realize I'm being harsh - a lot of what he's saying is really thought-provoking too. I'm not a fan of the hyperbolic tendency, but really interesting overall.
    • OA
      Olivier A.
      19 September 2020 @ 18:45
      Peter T. : I own bitcoin, gold and real assets, so I don't need to be lectured. Much less so rudely. Have a good day.
    • AK
      Ado K.
      19 September 2020 @ 20:55
      Law of diminishing returns does not understand exponential technological development. Let me give you a concrete example. What if we in a lab figure out how to make gold? What if we figure out how to, through manipulation of elements on the periodical system make them alter or change into something else. This sounds crazy today but so did probably electricity once upon a time. If we achieve that we can make infinite amount of gold quickly. Hence the law of diminishing return will not matter as technological development has altered supply on a exponential basis.
    • JM
      John M.
      20 September 2020 @ 02:59
      Ado: I get your point that there are possibilities to materially expand the gold supply. But realistically all of them are highly unlikely in the near term. What happens in a hundred years doesn't concern me at all. Gold will protect my wealth from currency debasement that lies Dead Ahead.
    • LM
      Luke M.
      20 September 2020 @ 03:57
      I agree Olivier. I thought he was really interesting but some of his hypotheses were ludicrous and that made me discount the value of other things he said. I own Bitcoin and Gold also...but I find it hard to appreciate the views of the hardcore bitcoin people that treat it like its the only future.
    • PP
      Patrick P.
      20 September 2020 @ 19:07
      Olivier... you hit the nail on the head ..CEO too long... and a board of directors with no common sense or balls IMO.
    • WM
      Will M.
      22 September 2020 @ 18:57
      Very good points Oliver Luke John, this is why I will dabble into bitcoin as a speculation that could make me a lot of money in just a few years. However gold (and silver) have got too much history to discount.
  • SM
    Sam M.
    19 September 2020 @ 12:41
    Raoul - re-hypothecation ... this bloke understands 3 syllable words only. Stop it. it is 1 million times better and everyone else is not missing that smarter faster better and steel and masony better.
    • SM
      Sam M.
      19 September 2020 @ 12:42
      Sex toys and only fans seem like a better forum if you don't understand negative carry / capital gain and loss. Risk what you want. But it is not deterministic. Unless you control parliament.
    • SW
      Sarah W.
      19 September 2020 @ 16:15
      Show us on the doll where Saylor touched you...
    • WM
      Will M.
      22 September 2020 @ 18:50
      Sarah, stop it......... if i had been eating or drinking when i read your commentI would have choked laughing. No personal insults remember?
  • SS
    Stephen S.
    19 September 2020 @ 00:19
    It would have been nice to address the risk of Government regulation or outright banning the use of certain crypto currencies. That is the most convincing potential risk for crypto to me. I also wonder if since this is a rather new technology and asset that there are many downsides we do not yet understand but will reveal themselves as time goes on. It’s easy to think to something very positively when it hasn’t really been tested in the real world yet. However, overall I remain bullish and this was very interesting. I feel the need to buy more Bitcoin now.
    • CW
      Collin W.
      19 September 2020 @ 01:30
      You have to understand that the govt. can't access or take your bitcoin/crypto if it is not on a centralized exchange. Secondly, you need to look the amount of financial and intellectual capital flowing into the space and realize that if the Govt. were to come out and ban it, ban crypto, etc. there would be a mass exodus to the countries that are in favor of it. People forget the world is bigger than the US. Game theory at its finest.
    • PK
      Philipp K.
      19 September 2020 @ 08:19
      U cannot regulate cryto. The whole point is to be outside of the state. Thus this is a risk, that is basically fake news and stems from a lack of understanding of what this new things is. Its like being worried of steel burning. It cannot. Crypto cannot be regulated, because it cannot be controlled by the state or anyone for that matter. The social processes we normally use to secure money are replaced by an automatic system that runs on economic incentives and software. The whole innovation is that the manual regulation and enforment processes to make sure the laws are followed are gone automated and just work in the background to the effect that u cannot even break the rules.
    • SS
      Stephen S.
      19 September 2020 @ 20:59
      I understand you could not regulate the ownership of Bitcoin if it's on your hard drive, but they could regulate exchanging it into US dollars or any other currency, which is what is ultimately useful to my life.
    • WM
      Will M.
      22 September 2020 @ 18:29
      Yes Stephen this is my biggest fear yet i understand where Collin and Philipp are coming from. Thus I will get into Bitcoin...and possibly Microstrategy as well.
  • JB
    John B.
    18 September 2020 @ 21:55
    Great interview. I think his thinking on gold is flawed. The primary assumption was "if you owned all the gold in existence" has never happened in 5000+ years, and I'll venture to say it probably will never happen. Secondly, The amount of gold produced by mining has mostly been outstripped by the growth in human population, thus the gold per capita has mostly been shrinking. The idea of losing 99% of cash value every 100 years is about right. The dollar has lost over 99% of its value since the federal reserve has been in existence. The pound is worth about 1/300 of what is was when the Bank of England started about 300 years ago. Personally I think preservation of spending power will be found in an asset(s) that are not administered by government or their agencies. Gold, Silver and bitcoin all fit that bill.
    • JM
      John M.
      19 September 2020 @ 07:12
      I agree. Since 1950, I think gold production has kept pace with population growth i.e., 2/3rds of the world's gold (197,576 tons) has been mined since 1950. Global population was 2.5B in 1950 and 7.7B today. However, gold production will grow much more slowly in future (due to peak gold) than it has in recent decades. The price should benefit accordingly. IMO in addition to global population growth in the past century, growing global affluence has also helped the gold price (global GDP increased much more rapidly than the world's gold supply).
    • WM
      Will M.
      22 September 2020 @ 18:25
      I fully agree. I am long the physical and the mining stocks to a significant extent. I am now going to get into bitcoin and etherium per Raoul's rational (he is much smarter than me so my 5% personal stake will be small stuff). However, I won't see gold or silver to buy, just reduce my exposure to 50% cash!
  • ES
    Edward S.
    18 September 2020 @ 18:57
    So is not MSTR stock a great play on software AND bitcoin? This $500M investment is not factored into the stock price.
    • WM
      Will M.
      22 September 2020 @ 18:18
      I was just wondering that myself....
  • FL
    Fabrizio L.
    18 September 2020 @ 17:24
    Can Real Vision disclose if it is receiving payment in any form from Crypto players of sort? I can not otherwise understand this push in pitching Crypto.
    • RP
      Raoul P. | Founder
      18 September 2020 @ 17:29
      Nothing on the platform is paid for. Real Vision Crypto will have sponsors in due course. It will be fully disclosed.
    • PN
      Paco N.
      18 September 2020 @ 20:27
      Fabrizio if you put some effort into learning about it you will understand why Bitcoin (not "crypto") is worth top attention from any investor who isn't stuck in the past. Start with "The Bitcoin Standard" by Saifedean Ammous. Anyone ignoring BTC at this time is the same as investors ignoring the Internet and tech in 1990. No wonder Raoul is so focused on it.
    • FR
      Frank R.
      20 September 2020 @ 00:49
      Economic reality will be harsh on you friend.
    • WM
      Will M.
      22 September 2020 @ 18:14
      Fabrizio, I too was pretty anti-bitcoin being a baby boomer precious metals guy. However, while not CONVINCED that bitcoin will last, I am now convinced enough to add bitcoin (and etherium) to my investments, even if no more than 5% of my total wealth. Cant afford NOT to take the risk given the potential.
  • DG
    David G.
    18 September 2020 @ 17:14
    Insane interview. I started mining bitcoin about 5 years ago and have been accumulating ever since. I have never sold any of my stash. It's been one hell of a ride so far. Looking forward to the next 5 years and what may come.
    • WM
      Will M.
      22 September 2020 @ 18:10
      Great job David.
  • RE
    Ryan E.
    18 September 2020 @ 16:06
    Amazing Interview! Have you ever tried getting James Dale Davidson on RV? The Author of the The Sovereign Individual?
    • WK
      William K.
      19 September 2020 @ 22:39
      James Dale Davidson's investment newsletter call for Genemax to be the "investment of the decade" and its subsequent path to oblivion very soon thereafter pretty much excludes him from consideration.
    • WM
      Will M.
      22 September 2020 @ 18:10
      I read James Dale Davidson and Lord Rees Mogg's book "The Great Reckoning" back in the early 90's and it set me on a path of financial conservatism thereafter. I loved the book but it was 20 years ahead of its time and didn't make me any money.....however i did stay safe I guess. Unfortunately you can be right about something eventually but timing is everything. JDD has been wrong too many times to be of interest to me.
  • BC
    Benjamin C.
    18 September 2020 @ 14:53
    He just got my whole pension allocation. All already done.
    • WM
      Will M.
      22 September 2020 @ 18:04
      Good luck.....
  • PJ
    Paul J.
    18 September 2020 @ 14:18
    Is a bit bitcoin exchange ant-fragile with respect to an EMP? Is all the bitcoin in the world anti-fragile to a nuclear war? i hope I can buy my RealVision crypto subscription in bitcoin?
    • AS
      Atul S.
      18 September 2020 @ 14:25
      Yes, it is basically impossible a solar flare, EMP or nuclear war would knock out all copies of the blockchain all over the world simultaneously.
    • BQ
      Brandon Q.
      18 September 2020 @ 14:59
      Not exactly true @Atul. Many people have secure backup copies of the blockchain stored in faraday changes and similar ALL over the world. Only two copies of the blockchain (so they can verify each other) need to survive in order to continue the network. Nearly impossible to simultaneously destroy every copy on every continent at the same time.
    • PJ
      Paul J.
      18 September 2020 @ 15:49
      Thank you for answering my questions.
    • PR
      Private R.
      18 September 2020 @ 18:56
      and don't forget the copy of the btc blockchain in space https://blockstream.com/satellite/
    • HS
      Henry S.
      18 September 2020 @ 19:42
      There's no recovery after a nuclear war in the 21st century. Check out Brian Toon's work if you don't believe me.
    • HC
      Hernán C.
      18 September 2020 @ 20:05
      Charly Shrem wrote about it: https://hackernoon.com/bitcoin-is-the-most-durable-currency-for-a-nuclear-war-801f78359ce6
    • MD
      Matt D.
      19 September 2020 @ 05:42
      A valid question, but big picture - if you're alive then you probably don't care.
    • TS
      Thierry S.
      19 September 2020 @ 08:53
      Alternative though for you : in case of EMP/Flare, etc , what do you think would happen to all the visa payment.... If you’re ok with the idea to pay everything with plastic, you should not have a problem with btc ;-)
    • FR
      Frank R.
      20 September 2020 @ 00:47
      Why does this matter? If an EMP or nuclear war hits the entire world and theoretically destroys the bitcoin ledger, don't we have bigger problems to worry about than what are we going use as money?
    • dw
      darcy w.
      20 September 2020 @ 01:51
      I am not choosing one side or the other, simply providing some perspective. It's true that catastrophic scenarios of the type where there is no electricity, or the network of "the internet" becomes unavailable, EMP, blah, etc. are probabilistically miniscule. But, I still think it's valid to consider these unexpected threats to Bitcoin. If anyone had suggested the COVID scenario in 2019 or before and described how life would be effected, globally, most would consider it probabilistically negligible, perhaps not even worthy of consideration. Here we are. Personally I think it's valid to consider such scenarios. And thinking through them could still make case for Bitcoin stronger. Such a point can carry more weight when coming from a personality with more credibility. In his typical humorous style: "For me an essential feature of a store of value is that you do not need an electrical socket to make it work" - Jim Grant https://www.realvision.com/shows/the-expert-view/videos/grants-observations-money-credit-and-financial-repression (skip to the last bookmark or 27:19)
    • WM
      Will M.
      22 September 2020 @ 18:03
      I suspect even a limited nuclear war will destry the world financial system including the internet and bitcoin. Only 2 metals will really count, lead and brass. Food, shelter and fighting illness will be the priorities of the generations living through such a disastrous event.....
  • RR
    Robert R.
    20 September 2020 @ 16:59
    Raoul/Ash, could you persuade Michael to share his BTC education program (that he used with his execs)?
    • SA
      Sarunas A.
      20 September 2020 @ 17:36
      Hi. In other podcast he mentioned reading / listening to: - Book “Bitcoin standard” by Saifedean Ammous - Article “The Bullish Case for Bitcoin” by Vijay Boyapati - YouTube videos of great Bitcoin educator Andreas Antonopoulos - Podcast “The Pomp Podcast” - YouTube video “Is Bitcoin the Future of Money? Peter Schiff vs. Erik Voorhees“ - All blog posts of “Unchained capital” e.g. “Gradually, Then Suddenly“ by Parker Lewis
    • EK
      Eric K.
      22 September 2020 @ 17:12
      Yea you could easily waste countless hours sifting through content, and never know if the discussant is credible. I made the comment below that I would love to see a consolidated curriculum on bitcoin and bitcoin investing done by a credible 3rd party (a non crypto firm) -- like, ahem, Real Vision. I'm fairly new to crypto investing and I've spent a lot of time trying to learn this in the same manner as those who've gone before us: digesting countless white papers and blog posts and youtube videos. I just think that moving forward, if we expect broad adoption (especially by the busy people comprising corporate boards), we've got to have a more concise method of getting people up to speed. Michael Saylor said it himself: he was lucky to have an intelligent, tech savvy board, many of whom already invested in crypto, plus he maintained a controlling interest in the company. (!) But what about other corporations (or your aunt Sally for that matter) who may not be so primed? We need a short, curated, not-summed-down-but-concise, just in time learning module for investing in crypto, with a curated reading list so people don't have to sift through so much to get up to speed.
  • ND
    Nivtej D.
    22 September 2020 @ 14:34
    Fantastic interview. Rare Candid insights from such high level CEO and investor. Insights and exchange between the both you worth their weight in gold??? no bitcoin??? :)
  • PV
    Peter V.
    22 September 2020 @ 11:55
    Realvision again showing the value of its products... Great interview with a guy I did not know anything about but Saylor is brilliant..
  • PO
    Peter O.
    22 September 2020 @ 04:06
    For me the best RealVision interview I've watched to date.
  • DM
    Don M.
    20 September 2020 @ 22:52
    Here's the problem with his logic - Bitcoin has regularly lost 50%. Cash doesn't lose 50%. Not sure a 50% loss of your cash is a steel ship compared to cash depreciating at 2% per year.
    • AR
      Andrew R.
      21 September 2020 @ 00:50
      When has bitcoin lost 50% adjusted for a reasonable time horizon? Your point is somewhat valid but based solely on the rationally that because something has lost value in the short term is has no long term value against an asset that doesn't lose value in the short term but losses value basically forever over the long term. Bitcoin has been profitable for 95.4% of it's entire life the US Dollar since 1913 has lost 96% of it's value and purchasing power. So in summary you prefer and asset that over time has lost 96% of its value over and asset that has improved it's purchasing power for more than 95.4% of its life? Now you could argue comparing these two timelines is unfair more than 100 years vs over 10 years but the directional bias would lead to bitcoin continue with it's current directional momentum not reversing to follow the dollar. Go onto google and go to the currency converter and put USD to bitcoin and set time to max. The chart for the USD doesn't look very healthy against Bitcoin. If it was a stock's chart would you buy that company with a chart that looks like a person has just flatlined to death.
    • MS
      Michael S.
      21 September 2020 @ 01:04
      Since Bitcoin first started trading in 2009, it is up one billion percent. Cash has lost 12% of it's purchasing power over that same period. That is the definition of a financial steel ship.
    • DK
      Dean K.
      21 September 2020 @ 04:42
      No Donnie, the US dollar just loses approx 99.5% of its' purchasing power over the last 80+yrs which will never be returned.... Q. when was the last time the "dollar" doubled in value against gold? A. tick-tock tick-tock... Q. when was the last time the Fed created a TRILLION dollars out of thin air? A. about a week ago
    • DM
      Don M.
      21 September 2020 @ 15:01
      I could have done a better job explaining my point. Apologies. I'm not talking about what will do best over the next 10, 20 or even 50 years. I was commenting on a CEO using the cash in his business to buy a volatile asset. He may believe he won't sell it for 100 years but business conditions don't always allow such holding periods and certainly a big loss in his "cash" can limit his maneuverability.
    • TS
      TAMAS S.
      22 September 2020 @ 03:58
      1. Time horizon.( 5years+) Michael talking about minimum 5-10 years or made a comparison 30years Bond. 2. If You bought BTC 5 years ago 250-500$ and we had multiple times more than 30-50% drop in price it still a good investment or trade? I bought BTC 250$ and 500, and 1000$ and i bought 8500$ BTC and of 2017 and i sold it 16500 couple weeks, months later.(and i had to pay serious amount of capital tax gain). So my question is if You sitting 7500% gain and a year later You had only 2000% profit it was a bad investment?( by the way that mean we had more than 70% drop, not 50%). or listen Raoul and Mark Hart interview 2016-2017. If You know we going to lose min. 2% purchasing power every year that is FED official plan, but they updated as if is bit higher they ok with that. In reality we losing around 6-10%/ year ; if You calculate 8% purchasing power lost 5 year it is more than 46% loss. So the 50% volatility start to fade away. By the way the volatility in BTC slowly decreasing. If more and more people have experience they savings and assets start to fading away with this monetary experiment...we will see Grasham`s law in action. Meaning people going to save or increase they savings % in BTC. This is not a sprint it is a marathon. So if someone have a positive cashflow what choice He or She has; where do You put invest your savings if your investment horizon more than 5 years? So if You had a positive cashflow who forcing You to sell an asset what is not losing purchasing power?
  • BM
    Brook M.
    22 September 2020 @ 03:17
    At 1:48:30 Raoul made me feel a lot better about myself. "The terrifying moment when you transfer your bitcoin from the exchange to your hard wallet and say, "Oh @#%& I hope I put in the right numbers." I guess that is a universal feeling for all newcomers.
  • ZY
    ZHENG Y.
    21 September 2020 @ 14:40
    Did i am the only ppl found the cover page guy and the content inside guy look so different? Just another Great interview that blow my mind...
    • DF
      D F.
      22 September 2020 @ 00:28
      Yes, me too. I was searching for the video for minutes because I had only watched part of it, thinking I'd recognize the face of the guy and skipped by the videos cover picture several times.
  • DF
    D F.
    22 September 2020 @ 00:23
    Brilliant, inspirational and reassuring conversation : )
  • ML
    Murali L.
    21 September 2020 @ 04:14
    This dude is so full of himself, god help Microstrategy!
    • FR
      Florian R.
      21 September 2020 @ 20:10
      He is the CEO since 1989, I bet they will fail any time now.
  • TP
    Timothy P.
    21 September 2020 @ 18:21
    Finally, someone who understands the difference between Proof-of-Work and Proof-of-Stake, re: Ethereum. Its a relief to see someone with the clarity of Michael Saylor. More, please.
  • DF
    David F.
    21 September 2020 @ 16:54
    Magnificent Raoul.
  • AA
    Andrew A.
    21 September 2020 @ 15:51
    What are folks views on Plan B's Stock to Flow vs ByteTree's Transaction Volume valuation models? . Charlie Morris at ByteTree says if everyone buys and holds (like Saylor plans to) then transaction volumes will fall and this could drive down the Bitcoin price. Does there not need to be an active network for price to grow? Perhaps RV could invite Charlie to explain his model for balance?
  • DM
    Don M.
    21 September 2020 @ 14:58
    The last 40 minutes are really good.
  • CM
    Chris M.
    21 September 2020 @ 14:12
    absolutely, totally worth the 2 hours. great interview raoul!
  • JA
    Joseph A.
    21 September 2020 @ 14:09
    I think after bitcoin formed a head and shoulders recently then dropped and then nearly filled the 9600 area gap with a bit of a bounce around 10k, there will be another test downwards first. Having been in since around 5k I’m being patient and mindful of dollar cost averaging my position adding on pullbacks. I didn’t feel the need to add significantly at 10k area with the gap so close although I did add a little just below in the 9800 area. Not surprisingly 10k was a well defended level in the short term. My money is on down some more first before adding some more. If I’m wrong then adding higher up is ok with me too. Some have observed that as being foolish. I’m playing long term and average pricing is important imho.
  • ND
    Nicole D.
    20 September 2020 @ 22:07
    If so many have invested or are investing in Bitcoin why is it not going up? One year ago today it was worth $10,168, today it's worth $10,800. Compare that to increases in silver, gold, some stocks and real estate. I wonder if we are early in Bitcoin? Maybe we are going to have another decade or two like the last decade. I hope not but something I am wondering about.
    • PB
      PHILLIP B.
      21 September 2020 @ 00:58
      What is your time horizon?
    • WW
      Will W.
      21 September 2020 @ 11:56
      As a publicly traded company, unfortunately one's time horizon is usually quarter by quarter. I applaud Michael taking a longer time horizon, and while he downplayed the decision, having been on quite a few boards, despite what seems like full transparency with shareholders if we have another market meltdown and BTC moves with the markets, a 25%-50% drawdown will most likely have the ambulance chasers out in force. For all of cash's issues which I don't disagree with, in the short to intermediate term cash isn't trash and can be a great strategic asset. I think Raoul's interview with Fidelity was a good counter balance in that yes the wave is building, but it is probably going to move slower than any of us would like. The plumbing is still being put in place, and while I applaud Plan B's groundbreaking work on stock to flow, given all of Michael's well reasoned arguments for why BTC now, we are still talking about roughly a $250bn market, and given the global chaos, macro backdrop, I do think it is a fair question with all of that why is BTC basically flat over the last twelve months of incredible tail winds, and hasn't sniffed all time highs? Personally, I prefer a more orderly advance and like that we have moved back above $10k with an absence of FOMO, and while I have been a long-term BTC holder I am still taking a wait and see attitude.
  • EC
    Edward C.
    21 September 2020 @ 11:47
    Plenty of interesting comments below and unfortunately, it feels we have a few haters creeping onto the platform. We're all here to learn, not to get castigated when we're wrong. Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone and all that.......Anyway.....Whether bullish or bearish, in disagreement or not, I must say I was truly refreshed by his care for the survival of the company and stewardship of the company capital....being responsible. (Compared to some of the stuff I have read on Epsilon Theory (Great read) in relation to one of the airline CEOs in particular, whom seem to only care to feather their own nests). His passion invigorated me, even if his thought process seemed disjointed at times. I was surprised to see he doesn't seem to be a significant shareholder however....although HDS may not be 100% accurate....
  • BN
    Barrett N.
    21 September 2020 @ 11:46
    Awesome interview! Thanks!
  • RP
    Raoul P. | Founder
    18 September 2020 @ 11:02
    If you are having trouble getting access to this please let us know. Some comments suggests you aren't all able to watch it? RV Crypto is available to everyone...
    • TD
      Tory D.
      18 September 2020 @ 11:28
      I’m locked out.
    • SB
      Scott B.
      18 September 2020 @ 11:55
      I cannot watch in mobile or download
    • AS
      Anton S.
      18 September 2020 @ 13:43
      Only option for me to watch it is on laptop. Denied access on mobile and Apple TV.
    • BC
      Benjamin C.
      18 September 2020 @ 14:42
      its locked i'm afraid, i really want to share this with as many people as possible
    • AB
      Alastair B.
      18 September 2020 @ 16:36
      Locked for me. iOS app / plus tier
    • PC
      Philip C.
      21 September 2020 @ 11:33
      I can watch on my PC, but locked out on Amazon TV Firestick.
  • NL
    Nikola L.
    21 September 2020 @ 09:54
    great, great, great.
  • bm
    brian m.
    21 September 2020 @ 06:34
    How vulnerable is bitcoin over 100 years to a carrington event/EMP/Electrical failure/Civilization collapse/satelite failure/loss of keys/Far superior replacement?. I think older people who have more money are more likely to buy gold when fear prevails.(only in the short term)
  • MS
    Mark S.
    20 September 2020 @ 18:14
    Have to agree with some of the critics below, this was quite underwhelming and a lot of the reasoning seemed fairly sloppy imo. Don‘t agree that this somehow devalues RV or the content in general though. Seems interesting in itself to understand the thought process behind the decision even if one thinks that the arguments were weak.
    • RP
      Raoul P. | Founder
      20 September 2020 @ 19:44
      Well said Mark. You disagree, which is good but you listened to his arguments to continue to confirm your view.
    • MS
      Mark S.
      21 September 2020 @ 06:22
      My view is that BTC is great. I just thought that his arguments/reasoning were (partly) weird. The video made me strangely less bullish about bitcoin. But I can see from the other comments that I‘m the minority here and, again, I do like to see stuff that I disagree with so thanks for bringing him on.
  • NI
    Nate I.
    21 September 2020 @ 05:47
    That was a great interview. Well done. I would point out that 1 oz of gold still buys the same number of hot dogs in 2020 that it did in 1920 so I don't buy the argument that you lose 2% per year of purchasing power in gold. The gold supply increases, but so does productivity and population. They tend to offset each other. I have fears for both btc and gold. BTC is only as good as its encryption. Quantum computing is currently within the reach of state actors. Soon it will be within the reach of hacker networks. BTC needs to deal with that weakness asap. The prime factoring problem that underlies all modern cryptography algorithms can be hacked with quantum computing. I was surprised that a MIT engineer didn't mention encryption concerns. My engineering degree is far less prestigious, but quantum hacking potential is constantly on my mind, not only for btc but for the entirety of Internet commerce. Cheap power worries me with gold. If the fusion reactor in France is successful, it's only a matter of time before fusion gets more and more efficient. If electric power generation gets cheap enough, you can make all of the gold you want. For both gold and btc, these things need to be in your 100 year time horizon, yet I don't hear anyone talking about either one.
  • MC
    Mathieu C.
    20 September 2020 @ 20:26
    That's a great interview which I picked up thanks to Raoul on a daily briefing that I randomly watched (so much contents on Real vision, hard to filter out what is worth one hour of the time watching that at the end I don't watch anything at all). Ironically watching this long 2 hours video was productive. Let me summarised my thought for the penny it worths. "Real yield are around -30%” interesting but it's the yield for people living off their capital trying to buy assets. Not Mr John who sell his time against money to pay his rent as 90% of the population. A billionaire needs perhaps 3 or 4 cars and 20 pairs of shoes but that is it. Those people don’t run much of consumption in a tertiary economy and apparently, during the 21st century, neither invest their proceeds in the real economy. So what do they do with their cash apart investing in financial assets? Are they running QE on their own? It might be about time to see that cash unleashed into the real economy and create jobs rather than parked into a storage financial asset which is BTC. I will tell you what asset you could buy that will lift up the world. Give your cash to banks, they will leveraged it into the real world and in 100 years, yes let me tell you that. There will obviously still be around and still ripping their customers off for the satisfaction of their shareholder financial returns. Again I do believe it's a great interview and a great content but I want to emphasise that if you are talking about -30% real yields now because of the tech bubble. What about the -80% real yield on the crypto world. Yes. The same should apply. Ok it hasn't been moving (haha) for the last couple of years but what is the percentage appreciation of this asset overall? Both of you guys are probably way smarter than myself but, come on, the arguments don’t make any sense. All the smart people around you are buying into this, really ? wow. It might be about time for you all to live without your capital interest payments to have a sense about what is the real world and its financial insecurity. I would have thought it could have been a nice demonstration on how inflation expectation affects his rational mindset (and perhaps this is what we had) but at the end it sounds just like a commercial for (corporate) people to buy bitcoin and my argument is this. You have half a billion dollar in cash that you are afraid to see eroded (100 years really, there is nowhere else to invest into that timeframe? Perhaps not now, agreed but come on) and you don’t want to invest it in treasury for whatever reason as the yield is too low, or tech stocks valuation are too high, lol. (No the economy is not made of tech stocks, even though technology is an edge of each company). Thus you decide to invest (all, if I understand correctly, lol) into BTC which have an even higher price, the only difference is that it cannot be quantified or explained as it doesn't produce any cash flow so doesn't have any intrinsic value. Well what will happen, and you must certainly have a plan B, if BTC looses a large chunk of its value? (for whatever reason). I am not even saying it will, just a risk point of view which seemed to have been completely discarded in this episode. So basically if I rephrase with my simple words, the whole point of this interview. You don’t invest your corporate treasury into BTC. You invest cash that you don’t need and don’t know what to do with it in BTC which is rather different for me. (You said that it takes a long time to convert cash into BTC so one can assume it is not liquid and it will be the same on the other side when you would want to convert BTC into cash, so no, trading out on Sundays won't be possible). These are not cash anymore. This is a bet (which I hope will pay off for you) leveraged through your company saving or let's simply call it your company treasure (not even treasury) Apart from that, the rational behind why bitcoin should hold its value due to technology investment and the diluted effect is very interesting and makes a lot of sense. Thanks.
    • RP
      Raoul P. | Founder
      20 September 2020 @ 23:48
      Great and thoughtful comment. Thanks
    • MD
      Matt D.
      21 September 2020 @ 04:26
      Insightful - thanks!
    • MD
      Matt D.
      21 September 2020 @ 05:14
      My thinking for a long time has been that once BTC became valued in USD it became another commodity or currency, its value relative to the very thing it is meant to hold to account.
  • DM
    Don M.
    20 September 2020 @ 22:49
    Could have shortened this by 80% if we all just agreed that M. Saylor is the smartest, greatest, sharpest guy ever.
    • PB
      PHILLIP B.
      21 September 2020 @ 00:57
      I found it fascinating. It was a bit longer than many interviews. However, he's just some guy who got some lucky breaks and made the best of it. Good for him.
    • ML
      Murali L.
      21 September 2020 @ 04:15
      Didn’t you know the world revolves around him? :)
    • DK
      Dean K.
      21 September 2020 @ 04:52
      Jealousy runs deep in you doesn't it?....wishing you all the best though in all your future endeavours
  • JS
    John S.
    21 September 2020 @ 04:35
    Wow, what a free ranging interview. Thanks to Raoul for letting Saylor spout off and continue with his many digressions. The interview allowed for some amusing analogies and Saylor's contagious excitement for Bitcoin to be fully explained.
  • cb
    cullen b.
    21 September 2020 @ 01:49
    I literally sold a stack of Alts for More BTC because of this interview. Cheers
  • SM
    Sam M.
    20 September 2020 @ 13:02
    I tried. And here died Real Vison.
    • MS
      Michael S.
      21 September 2020 @ 01:24
      Uh, quite the opposite, here is where your precious central banks died, and RV moved to the next level with CRV.
  • GS
    Gerald S.
    20 September 2020 @ 13:26
    Couldn't make it past the first 8 min. What an incredibly humble guy,
    • MS
      Michael S.
      21 September 2020 @ 01:22
      They say I'm cocky, and I say what, it ain't bragging Mother F...er if you back it up!! And Michael Saylor backs it up!
  • MJ
    Mark J.
    20 September 2020 @ 20:57
    Enjoyed the interview, hugely thought provoking. Nice job Raoul on staying focussed and patient with your interviewee, you can definitely coach HH on that skill! It did get a bit mania like in places, and probably didn't present the case against bitcoins future success or alternatives in a way that is needed to get the nay sayers onboard. That said, he's put his money where his companies mouth is and that is bold statement indeed. I'm always left wondering though in this world of unquestioned fiat debasement, and very few viable alternatives to preserve wealth, whether in the end anyone can really "win". If fiat debases 100x vs bitcoin and everything else, don't governments just tax all hard asset gains in all their forms at massively higher levels to offset the gains. In other words, isn't it all a zero sum game at some point until the financial system truly resets in a blockchain based setting and wealth is allowed to be freely accumulated again by individuals and companies alike? For the record, I am long and believer in the blockchain / crypto / token revolution, i'm just not sure what success in this game will really look like when the corollary of a bitcoin meltup is a global societal meltdown.....maybe that is topic for a future interview..
    • PB
      PHILLIP B.
      21 September 2020 @ 01:02
      I don't think there has to be a global societal meltdown for BTC to see huge increases in the BTCUSD. All it would take is a trivial percentage of assets in the paper, financial markets to sell in those markets (and hardly move the price) and buy BTC. The paper financial markets including bonds and equities are, what $300T (just guessing). One percent of that leaves and buys BTC. No societal meltdown.
  • JV
    John V.
    20 September 2020 @ 21:30
    I feel this one interview paid for my subscription and then some! After 3 decades plus of investing. What a great big pic view and then excellent descriptive path to/of bitcoin Thank you so ! JV
    • PB
      PHILLIP B.
      21 September 2020 @ 00:59
      Yes! There were a lot of ideas in this interview that had nothing to do with Bitcoin. Agree that there was a lot of great, big picture perspective.
  • PT
    Peter T.
    20 September 2020 @ 23:25
    Amazon why would i buy that " they just sell books".......... Opportunity lies in misunderstandings
  • RC
    Rafael C.
    20 September 2020 @ 22:10
    Wonderful interview. Kudos to Michael, he is superb explaining his logic. Raoul just sat and listened for the most part.
  • AR
    Andrew R.
    20 September 2020 @ 21:42
    Firstly, how much of a legend is Michael. Not just because I am a mad crypto bull but because he had the guts to really put it on the line, talk about putting your money where your mouth is!
  • SA
    Sandeep A.
    20 September 2020 @ 19:49
    Loved the conversation. I am new to crypto so was very enlightening. However, I wonder with such a visionary CEO who clearly knows so much about finance in addition to technololgy, why hasn't Microstrategy not created much shareholder value in the last decade - not even kept up with the currecy debasement. Any thoughts?
    • MC
      Mathieu C.
      20 September 2020 @ 20:49
      MicroStrategy Inc went from 86 USD to 4000 USD during the tech bubble. it multiply 46x your money. I mean that should be in the top 100, if not the best performance during that time ( from the survivors), no? Now Renaissance Technologies LLC is buying into this. Here is your answer haha :)
  • RT
    ROBERT T.
    20 September 2020 @ 14:39
    Thinking you can predict / forecast a hundred years into the future and this is the basis for your thesis discredits this interview for me. Interesting, yes. Entertaining, yes. Good topic / interview for RV, yes. Compelling reason to put a significant percentage of my portfolio in BC, no! The hyperbole of the arguments were akin to buying something on QVC... like building a boat out of a screen door with flex seal sprayed on it.
    • PP
      Patrick P.
      20 September 2020 @ 18:51
      Robert ...like building a boat out of a screen door ....can't stop laughing.... IMO Bernie Madoff would have loved this BTC idea.
    • DS
      Dimitri S.
      20 September 2020 @ 20:38
      Thanks for the good laugh.
  • DS
    Dimitri S.
    20 September 2020 @ 20:28
    On a side note, are there security and privacy concerns with Zoom? Isn’t it a Chinese company? I gather there is some level of encryption but to what level and are there backdoors.
  • PG
    PETER G.
    20 September 2020 @ 20:08
    Just finished the entire 2 hours...left we wanting more! Great interview packed with info, thank you so much. I would've been interested to hear Michael's thoughts on blockchain technology itself and the role it might play (if any) in MicroStrategy's services and products.
  • DJ
    David J.
    20 September 2020 @ 18:16
    This interview seems to have upset a few people.. In my view the perspective is valuable even I if I don't agree with 100% of it. Remember we've had some staunchly anti-crypto voices on the platform (Kupperman calls it a Ponzi scheme on his blog). I give it a thumbs up.
    • PP
      Patrick P.
      20 September 2020 @ 18:55
      My money is on Kuppy...
    • SA
      Sarunas A.
      20 September 2020 @ 19:08
      Patrick it even gets better. You can easily short Bitcoin
  • RS
    Reiner S.
    19 September 2020 @ 23:12
    I am awed by the great interview and the new thinking and it’s really valuable for a small time new investor. Even more impressed by the way Michael masters life. I call it ‘rolling with the punches’ and in technology this is a daily event .. However, as a guy that spend 20+ years in technology security including crypto, having seen the breakthroughs (and misses), I am a little astounded that Michael is not considering the technology risk for bitcoin. Let’s look at crypto 100 years back... I don’t think there is much forward security left.... and then now, and compare the cryptanalysis work that goes along with it. I rather own gold longterm, even though, I don’t believe in owning anything too long as we have cycles and you move the way macro moves. I buy bitcoin (maybe 10% of what I buy in Gold and Silver) because of the creditor risk. While gold may really get much harder to mine (or not), crypto will definitely get easier to break. It’s quite a bet to assume that bitcoin will be around in 100 years. As most things with technology risk, bitcoin is quite vulnerable to sentiment. Not saying bitcoin is doomed, just adding into the discussion that there is certainly less understood risk involved in Bitcoin than in Gold and Silver (now I am going out on a limb) which is around a little bit. Both are of course much more durable than 0s and 1s the Fed types into the money machine. Lucky I don’t have to invest for 100 years...I am trying to get to 5years at this point. Thanks again. Totally awesome these crypto discussions and interviews.
    • PP
      Patrick P.
      20 September 2020 @ 18:59
      Reiner ... Paragraphs man ... You had some good points ...use paragraphs to get them across.
  • hs
    hanumath s.
    20 September 2020 @ 17:59
    Inflation could be looked like the financial front running of a demographic change. Running out of bonds before boomers pile in and running into equities before millenials buy-in. Financial firms would do this in commodities, but politicians and centrals banks obsession with stable low prices make these firms attack the next best thing.
    • MD
      Matt D.
      20 September 2020 @ 18:08
      Um, could you repeat that please... Cheers.
  • hs
    hanumath s.
    20 September 2020 @ 17:59
    Inflation could be looked like the financial front running of a demographic change. Running out of bonds before boomers pile in and running into equities before millenials buy-in. Financial firms would do this in commodities, but politicians and centrals banks obsession with stable low prices make these firms attack the next best thing.
  • hs
    hanumath s.
    20 September 2020 @ 17:59
    Inflation could be looked like the financial front running of a demographic change. Running out of bonds before boomers pile in and running into equities before millenials buy-in. Financial firms would do this in commodities, but politicians and centrals banks obsession with stable low prices make these firms attack the next best thing.
  • hs
    hanumath s.
    20 September 2020 @ 17:59
    Inflation could be looked like the financial front running of a demographic change. Running out of bonds before boomers pile in and running into equities before millenials buy-in. Financial firms would do this in commodities, but politicians and centrals banks obsession with stable low prices make these firms attack the next best thing.
  • MJ
    Marius J.
    20 September 2020 @ 17:25
    Agree with the comment to focus and get a deeper understanding on the downside risk with BTC. Also, thanks for this interview.
  • RR
    Robert R.
    20 September 2020 @ 16:58
    Did I hear the same interview as some of the comments below? This exchange was engaging, invigorating, challenging, provoking, enlightening. Brilliant. Thanks, Michael and Raoul.
  • LK
    L K.
    19 September 2020 @ 13:39
    "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because it's opponents die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." Max Planck
    • SA
      Sarunas A.
      20 September 2020 @ 16:54
      OMG! I was literally posting same quote when I saw you made it first! The German physicist Max Planck said that science advances one funeral at a time.
  • TT
    Terry T.
    20 September 2020 @ 16:51
    Brilliant interview. If the other crypto interviews are half this good then Raoul and RV will have made a significant contribution to the collective understanding of Bitcoin.
  • SA
    Sarunas A.
    20 September 2020 @ 16:48
    This interview is great. And it shows in comments section, as there are only two reactions: best interview of all times and RV killed itself we are leaving the platform and not renewing subscription. Haha. So much excitement! So much cognitive dissonance from guys “I worked in central bank”
  • DW
    Daniel W.
    20 September 2020 @ 14:14
    Hi, do we have btc experts in this chat? My dilemma with btc is the following: The support the btc/blockchain network massive computing power is required. As far as I understand that computing power is largly provided by miners. The number of btc which are still to be mined is falling exponentially. Thus, to keep revenues constant for miners the price of btc has to rise exponentially. Which has not happened for years. There seems to be a self destruction mode within bitcoin. Won't the network seize to function once miners are no longer willing to provide computing power? And how long will they provide computing power when the mine less and less btc due to the limitation to 21mio btc?
    • RP
      Raoul P. | Founder
      20 September 2020 @ 16:15
      Best is to head over to The Exchange...
    • SA
      Sarunas A.
      20 September 2020 @ 16:39
      Computer in Bitcoin network solves problems what adjusts automatically. The system is called Difficulty adjustment. Bitcoin's difficulty is designed to adjust every 2016 blocks — or approximately every two weeks. This adjustment is based on changes in the network's hashrate, and occurs regularly in an attempt to ensure that the network continues to solve new blocks at a rate of one every 10 minutes. Example: of gold miners invest in capex 2x more they start digging twice as fast. Same logic applies if they cut their capex or turn of half of machines. Twice less new gold. In bitcoin network difficulty of “mining adjust” automatically according how much machines are operating. This means that no matter how many miners / computers are in the network the bitcoin mining (which is basically a subsidy for miners to perform transactions) and transactions speed remains the same
    • SA
      Sarunas A.
      20 September 2020 @ 16:42
      Miners each 10 minutes get a reward. It’s a sum of new bitcoins (subsidy) and bitcoins paid for transactions in that block (payment fee). In the beginning it was 99,99% / 0,01%. Now it’s 90/10. When price of bitcoin increases, the payment fees will be enough to keep miners incentivized to operate even when new bitcoin issuance decrease or ends up
  • SM
    Sam M.
    20 September 2020 @ 10:03