Rebel Economists Unpick Historical Path to Global Recovery

Published on
November 22nd, 2016
75 minutes

Rebel Economists Unpick Historical Path to Global Recovery

The Interview ·
Featuring Michael Hudson

Published on: November 22nd, 2016 • Duration: 75 minutes

With two renegade economists in one room you can expect some controversial opinions about the current economic establishment. Professor Steve Keen interviews professor and author, Michael Hudson, sharing radical views and an extraordinary depth of knowledge. Discussing the complacency and complicity of traditional economic models, adopted by universities and central banks, the professors apply the history of economic thought to solutions for the ongoing global depression.


  • KS
    Kathleen S.
    2 March 2018 @ 07:29
    I love these two guys, but I disagree with the ideas that the central bankers and powers to be don't know what they are doing and don't understand how an economy works and are tied to fake math that doesn't work. I believe the bankers know exactly what they are doing and the goal is to enslave every sovereign state with unpayable debt as to impose their neo liberal agendas. They have done this all over the third world and are now doing it in places like Greece and we will see with Puerto Rico.
  • SC
    Shane C.
    7 February 2017 @ 08:23
    This guy is a socialist....awful...Benthem was a criminal, Mills and Ricardo were socialists...Say's Law is what you want to study...JB SAY...Austrians are exactly the opposite
  • DD
    Derek D.
    27 December 2016 @ 21:45
    US economy wrecked 1850-90? (Greatest expansion in world history.) Austrian economists "FOR" the parasites? Professors. (Sigh)
  • cd
    chris d.
    17 December 2016 @ 12:03
    No mention of technology and innovation, and delayed gratifying cation and how it fits within a Labour th or of value without it becoming a tautology
  • JD
    Jonathan D.
    9 December 2016 @ 11:06
    so two marxists walk into a pub (a profit seeking enterprise)
  • KS
    Kashyap S.
    8 December 2016 @ 11:18
    Extremely boring. Watched it just to see what other people found in it to upvote it. Random rambling nonsense.
  • ag
    anthony g.
    7 December 2016 @ 18:08
    More information on how we need to proceed in future would make this much better. With debt restructuring on a massive scale, stuff will change a lot for a while and how do we survive that investment hiccup ? This type of question needs to be answered going forward.
  • AN
    Amanda N.
    30 November 2016 @ 22:52
    People knows economy and history is sheer dangerous....Great interview....watched 4 times....cant help it.
  • SS
    Stephen S.
    29 November 2016 @ 19:07
    Fascinating. Thanks.
  • JC
    Joe C.
    29 November 2016 @ 15:25
    Joe C. Unbelievable. Wish I had heard these two great men speak previously. Have now decided to do some more reading based on this discussion. They have challenged my ideology and believe I've been subjugated to the ruling class of teachers today. Realism is very important to all of us if we no longer want to be slaves of a system. We must continually search for the truth help free all of mankind.
  • AL
    Andrew L.
    28 November 2016 @ 13:36
    I could watch an unlimited amount of this kind of material. RV we need a history category STAT! I want to see far more of this kind of deeply incisive discussion of the systems, how they work and how we got here.
  • MB
    Mike B.
    28 November 2016 @ 11:53
    With regards to debt forgiveness, he calls for a debt jubilee that will largely impact the top 1% including banks. The problem is the banks have syndicated off the debts pension funds and a debt forgiveness will impact the pensioners.
  • MB
    Mike B.
    28 November 2016 @ 11:51
    I love the comment by Hudson to Keen. "Your speaking so fast I want to make sure the audience understands" Keen responds " I am faster than you". Otherwise, a great interview and certainly not mainstream economic babble we usually get. Hudson is scary in a good way. Refers to banks as the parasite eating its host. How true!
  • WA
    WAYNE A.
    28 November 2016 @ 02:35
    I am glad they mention The Wharton School. I went there in 1964 to 1968. There was and Economic department then. Now, it is only Finance. The reason, I went there and took Economic as a major was I want to disprove the lies told me in High School by the left teachers. I am still looking for truth in Economic thought . It is not on the left not is found in the current media. The biggest liars live in the Democrat Party. The second biggest group of misinformed are the Republican party. History is all rewritten for the current for the masses of stupidity. Read the politic and economic of the USA from 1850 to World War One. Compare it to what really happened economically in the USA. The presentation was not what I thought it would be. It was if I was in High School listening to the "lies my teachers told me".
  • BC
    Brian C.
    28 November 2016 @ 00:18
    The interviewer could've put done a much better job just listening and not talking over the interviewee and interrupting as frequently happened throughout the interview
  • NA
    Naiem A.
    27 November 2016 @ 21:02
    One of the best interviews I have seen after two years of membership. would love to see more like this on economic history. Understanding the past is a key to understanding our future
  • SN
    Seth N.
    27 November 2016 @ 14:43
    I subscribe to RV to open my eyes to information I was unaware of and viewpoints different than mine. This discussion was both. Fascinating. The more I learn the more I realize how flawed my formal economics training was.
  • MG
    Mandeep G.
    27 November 2016 @ 10:47
    Classic RVTV .... Diverse Viewpoints .... Learning ..... Opening Minds ... No Bullshit! Loved the discussion, would have to come back and view again to absorb some of the ideas and then go read about them more.
  • WS
    Wm S.
    27 November 2016 @ 00:59
    36:29 MARK, Hudson talks of how segments of American economic historiography has been consigned to an "Orwellian memory hole." ____________________________________ Re-watching this for the third time. I can't say how delighted I was when RV featured not one but *two* differently provocative thinkers in one sitting. Let's go for three...or five. Co-moderators: Grant and Raoul. 90 minutes of that, please.
  • GS
    Gordon S.
    26 November 2016 @ 12:11
    Amazing interview! Some insightful anecdotes! I was glad to finally get the real world debt jubilee application proposals in the last minutes of the interview. Real Vision already debated Steve Keen's proposal in his latest interview and most of the community agreed that it would lead to massive moral hazards. I did not really understand Michael Hudson's proposal. First of all, as soon as I heard the "case by case" solution, I became very skeptical. As if in the political landscape mess we find ourselves today we would have any time to discuss - already highly controversial - case by case debt jubilees? In the Greek debt problem Michael Hudson advocates to write off the debt using the money in Swiss bank accounts from high ranked politicians? Great idea but good luck with implementing that one... Greeks debt of about $50 billion? A small google search finds more something like $350 billion (government debt only). It's clear that debt levels are too high, but I find the debt jubilee indirectly proposed by Jawed Mian here on Real Vision much more appealing. Just retiring central bank's assets. Still would love to get a more tangible debt jubilee work through in a follow up interview!
  • SH
    Steve H.
    25 November 2016 @ 15:30
    I have followed Mr. Hudson for several years now and I'm very happy that he is finally getting the attention he deserves.
  • ma
    mary a.
    25 November 2016 @ 01:28
    In the early 80's my friend Irving Friedman, the economist and Sr. International Advisor to Walter Wriston, advocated a debt jubilee for the Latin American countries in a debt crisis. Obviously it didn't happen. I wish I had gotten Irving to explain the economic underpinings of his view since it clearly was what these gentlemen are discussing. I always thought it was more a political mindset.
  • ma
    mary a.
    25 November 2016 @ 01:24
    I agree with Craig M.: "I wish they had spent more time of how debt forgiveness would work in the real world. In the next financial crisis the trillions of debt either will be defaulted, inflated or forgiven. What form(s) of wealth will survive the coming financial tsunami?" Please have a follow - up interview.
  • JS
    John S.
    25 November 2016 @ 01:21
    That was one epic interview! It's really hard to believe that these two are about the only economists that are telling the truth about economists.
  • GG
    Giacomo G.
    25 November 2016 @ 00:19
    well, this conversation made my lonely thanksgiving day much warmer. Many thanks to Mr Hudson, Mr Keen and RV
  • LW
    Lukasz W.
    24 November 2016 @ 20:47
    This is one of the videos i will be coming back to see many times.
  • wg
    william g.
    24 November 2016 @ 17:25
    All I can say is WOW. What a great discussion. My formal education is in Economics and I have always been a free enterprise capitalist but this has opened up a whole new view that I have been negligent in investigating. Although I intuitively and intellectually know that the excessive sovereign and private debt excesses around the world can never be repaid, and history supports this view, this interview drives the point home with support from economic history. Good for Real Vision. Keep it up and bring back more!
  • JS
    John S.
    24 November 2016 @ 16:04
    Brilliant discussion that probably requires multiple viewings to fully appreciate. Suggestion: Suspend ideology while listening.
  • eh
    erik h.
    24 November 2016 @ 07:26
    Mr Hudson continues to be a legend. Been following his book on creditary economics for quite some times and the people around him always have relevant input. If the general discussion would concentrate more on the FIRE sector, debt overhang and other crucial economic topics, the window for change on a national level would perhaps open rather then remaining locked on this credit cycle of frequent destruction. Some argue creative... There is nothing creative about a liquidity freeze and bailing in pension funds.
  • AV
    Alex V.
    24 November 2016 @ 07:19
    I'm loving the variety of content. Keep up the good work RV team. Maybe next time, just have a little bit of structure, otherwise great stuff! More please...
  • JS
    John S.
    24 November 2016 @ 07:13
    It's really amazing how economists still believe in this doctrine of automatic stabilizer that will somehow achieve equilibrium in the end.
  • MF
    Mohammad F.
    24 November 2016 @ 06:50
    It would be great to have Steve Keen debate next with a 'classical/Keynesian' economist.
  • JS
    John S.
    24 November 2016 @ 06:18
    Steve Keen talks too fast.
  • mm
    mark m.
    24 November 2016 @ 04:20
    Let's not tap our watch behind the camera. If they want to talk for three hours, I will watch the video in portions over a few days. If Realvision starts to resemble an online university with a variety of financial lectures, that's OK. We don't need to discuss gold in every video. If you were one of the people who saw the housing bust and financial crisis coming, it was very easy to get a depressing sort of tunnel vision when that was all you could think about. It pays to keep ones mind open and the topics of discussion varied. I would like to see more interviews on what the world might look like when not only the bond market is overtly nationalized, but the stock market, banks, pensions, who knows what else. It seems that this is inevitable path we are on. The interview with Russell Napier was a good start.
  • GH
    Gregory H.
    24 November 2016 @ 01:48
    2 minutes in already love this guy
  • EA
    Ellen A.
    24 November 2016 @ 01:22
    Blessed are the Truth Seekers as they shall awaken the world. I loved this video...where else but on RealVision could this have taken place. So much of our history everywhere in the world has been hidden or changed to suit those in power. This was a breath of fresh air. I would love to see these two get together here on a regular basis and teach us some history. RealVision is not just about making money. It's about learning and hearing what you could never hear on main stream media. It's about opening our minds.
  • DS
    David S.
    23 November 2016 @ 23:51
    A very pleasant conversation and I am glad so many viewers enjoyed it. I would like to see a more detailed discussion of the debt forgiveness plan with actual policy implementation discussions. If the debts are forgiven, most to the current debtors including individuals and countries will be over their heads in debt again as they look for a free lunch. We really need new thinking based on classical thinking. Adam Smith would have different policy solutions now. We should too. DLS
  • VS
    Victor S. | Contributor
    23 November 2016 @ 16:27
    Two very esoteric men that were in their own world but very enlightening .
  • ZY
    ZHENG Y.
    23 November 2016 @ 14:15
    i was surprise about the concept of debt cancellation, which is mean default? Or default is mean you restructure the debt and repay in the future.
  • PJ
    Peter J.
    23 November 2016 @ 11:30
    Well that was different and IMO one of the best RV videos to date. Very much a discussion rather than a straight interview and one which I will watch again. More like this would be very welcome, need to go off and read some books.
  • RG
    23 November 2016 @ 11:15
    One of the most interesting interviews presented that has given me a much better understanding about the terrible mess created by the economic "elites" running the Fed. The anecdote about the basic economic ignorance of Bernanke was staggering.
  • SF
    Simon F.
    23 November 2016 @ 08:27
    Really great stuff, hiwever, as i have said in comments before, i would love to see two people of similar calibre who DONT agree with each other slug it out. Oh and dont worry about how long the video
  • LS
    Leigh S.
    23 November 2016 @ 07:19
    Always a fan of these two. One day their ideas and understanding of the system will be seen to be of value. In the meantime we suffer.
  • KD
    Ken D.
    23 November 2016 @ 06:21
  • BL
    Barclay L.
    23 November 2016 @ 03:12
    I liked the bit on taxes-insurance-rent sucking America dry. So hard to have anything left over. How true, and thus we have the gravitation to Trump as a revolt. If Fannie and Freddie already own the debt of half of America, I can see debt forgiveness as a way out, but banks, pensions, and insurance companies get nationalized along the way as otherwise wiped out. Easier to cancel the debt when one is not the global savings repository everyone is counting on. At some point, global savings gets wiped and government does the reset. Real stuff -- hard assets -- only real place to hide, but since so much of that is levered, everything could look ugly until the reset. Am I nuts? Feels lonely and claustrophobic to think this way.
  • js
    jacob s.
    23 November 2016 @ 02:42
    holy shit this is so good
  • TS
    Tim S.
    23 November 2016 @ 02:27
    @ Ken T - Understand your complaint. I felt that way when I first joined, everything went over my head but after watching a TON of RealVisionTV and reading many recommended books I can now follow the conversation. The real world application is how the global financial situation will resolve itself in the next 1-10 years. This is interview is more like fine wine, an acquired taste...and some prefer beer instead.
  • TS
    Tim S.
    23 November 2016 @ 02:20
    Loved the interview and have a "to do" to read some new books. I think Steve Keen's interactions were different then past interviews but in this case I think it worked almost like a jazz riff, each person playing out the tune. May just be my preference.
  • RA
    Robert A.
    23 November 2016 @ 01:17
    An excellent follow up to Steve's interview and I really think we got more out of Steve working to get the best he could out of Michael! So....for those of us remotely considering Milton's call for "interviewers", I suggest you watch these guys go at it and ask yourself whether you think you could remotely keep up with either of these Gents? I do have one prediction to make; somewhere during their dinner together Steve is going to find out where all Michael's Notes on those obscure books are.....and what Michaels price is for the same ("man to man" contract). Steve was literally drooling when he found out Michael's notes existed!
  • DD
    Daniel D.
    23 November 2016 @ 01:13
    I prefer interviews that can contribute to idea generation for investments. I like to know where the x is so I can dig around there.
  • SS
    Steven S.
    22 November 2016 @ 23:51
    Excellent interview. Now RealVision pls take this great historical macroeconomic understanding and bring it down to street level. Gut instincts agree with these 'rebel' academic views, but what risk adverse, prudent action should a saver/investor take as we leave market apex and enter the realm of collective debt forgiveness or at worst case an old school pitch forked armed mob revolt?
  • CM
    CRAIG M.
    22 November 2016 @ 22:58
    I loved this interview, but as others pointed out Steve Keen’s constant interruptions were very annoying. I agree with both Michael Hudson and Keen that when one takes an advanced degree at a major university one is being indoctrinated into a belief system shared by the majority of the faculty. You must accept the orthodoxy in order to get a PHD or be a brilliant heretic. It is the failure to study and understand economic history that has led us to the 2016 Keynesian cul-de-sac of never-ending debt and credit expansion. Princeton Economic PHD’s do not admit that there were other rival economic systems and hence missed the 2008 financial crisis because of their flawed models. Those who have read the Austrian school or Minsky or Fisher know that over-indebtedness and credit expansion lead to debt deflation and depressions. I wish they had spent more time of how debt forgiveness would work in the real world. In the next financial crisis the trillions of debt either will be defaulted, inflated or forgiven. What form(s) of wealth will survive the coming financial tsunami?
  • RK
    Richard K.
    22 November 2016 @ 22:52
    Great interview. Stimulating and thought provoking. I will watch this one several times and I'm going to read Hudson's books. Worth the price of an annual subscription to me. That's not hyperbole.
  • PF
    Peter F.
    22 November 2016 @ 22:15
    2 top professors at the very pinnacle of their expertise and subject matters, having a relaxed interview cum conversation in plain English on non-mainstream economics in my living room! What a blissful way to spend time listening to them. I feel blessed. Thank you.
  • SF
    Steven F.
    22 November 2016 @ 20:25
    Interviewer needs to be better prepared and interrupt less. Extremely annoying
  • KS
    Kathleen S.
    22 November 2016 @ 19:56
    Sid V - In Chile the CIA orchestrated the over throw of the democratically elected Salvador Allende and Milton Friedman's - University of Chicago (home of neoliberalism) economists were brought in. Look up you American history - it is all there. The CIA actually admitted it's involvement and guess what this the real world not Disney World and people die.
  • PH
    Philip H.
    22 November 2016 @ 19:48
    Yes it is! I"m as mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore....!
  • MT
    Mark T.
    22 November 2016 @ 19:48
    Worth the entire years subscription price. Great job finding these guys and letting them speak freely. This should be in a category of its own for new and young readers as mandatory exposure to economic thought. Similar to the MasterClass videos. Thanks for finding these guys. I heavily bookmarked the session.
  • SS
    Stephen S.
    22 November 2016 @ 19:42
    Very interesting ideas. I love being able to view these alternative views. I may not agree, but great interview.
  • Sv
    Sid v.
    22 November 2016 @ 19:20
    Isn't bankruptcy the modern form of Babylonian or Hebrew debt forgiveness?
  • AH
    Andreas H.
    22 November 2016 @ 19:14
    I 100% agree!
  • Sv
    Sid v.
    22 November 2016 @ 19:10
    I doubt the Un of Chicago economists told Chilean leaders which economics to kill!
  • BB
    Bill B.
    22 November 2016 @ 19:03
    get these guys to bring more of their friends on RV
  • RB
    Rob B.
    22 November 2016 @ 18:55
    interesting interview, especially for those in the markets vs. academics. The one concept that cam through loud and clear - "Debtor nations end game is to be like Greece"
  • Sv
    Sid v.
    22 November 2016 @ 18:53
    Very interesting. Great discussion of the history of economic theory.
  • KS
    Kathleen S.
    22 November 2016 @ 18:44
    Amazing, loved this interview - so much information I will be re watching a few times. Thank you!
  • BA
    Ben A.
    22 November 2016 @ 18:39
    Yet another quality video! Thanks RV.
  • KT
    Ken T.
    22 November 2016 @ 18:34
    This may be a good video for the economists among us but for me who is much more interested in real world issues and not so much theoretical ones, this video was just 2 economist rambling about a bunch of different things. In other words, it was not very instructive or helpful. It would have been more helpful if they had stayed focus on a particular subject and weaved the theoretical with the real. They seemed very capable of being able to do this with a bit of guidance from the Real Vision team.
  • BG
    Brad G.
    22 November 2016 @ 18:11
    This is my favorite video I have seen since I joined 6 months ago. His argument on the public ownership of utilities "or they'll own you" is exactly what I showed in my thesis on utility pricing; a form of thought that was virtually extinguished by the late 1920's through new university colleges. As he described so clearly, I haven't received my union card either since graduation.