Reinventing the Monetary System with Decentralized Finance

Published on
September 23rd, 2020
Duration
67 minutes


Reinventing the Monetary System with Decentralized Finance

The Interview ·
Featuring Alex Saunders

Published on: September 23rd, 2020 • Duration: 67 minutes

Alex Saunders, CEO and founder of Nugget's News, joins Real Vision CEO, Raoul Pal, to explain the reinvention of the monetary system through new crypto payments systems based on Bitcoin, Ethereum, and stable coins. He tells Raoul the story of his introduction into the crypto world. Saunders also breaks down the expansion of global e-commerce through the explosive growth of decentralized finance. Filmed on September 15, 2020.

Comments

Transcript

  • ML
    Marc L.
    20 October 2020 @ 13:34
    Very irritating interview - just observe Raoul's body language here as compared to all other interviews. I wanted to learn about DeFi, but all I get is snake-charming gibberish without any substance of true merit to humanity. Just count the number of times the word "scam" and similar words are used, and you know enough. This space is just about Ethereum and other crypto OG's making up a scam world in order to grab other people's money. The scam of a scam of a scam of a scam is still.... a scam. Right? Yes, there will be DeFi; but no, it won't be built on centralized blockchains with points of failures. Mehhh.
  • RP
    Richard P.
    17 October 2020 @ 20:21
    The best video that I have seen on RealVision. I don't want to hear others tell me that my predisposed premise is right or wrong, I want to realise how little I know and for that to force me to want to learn more. This video made me aware of the gulf of knowledge that I have and that really excites me to educate myself.
    • MC
      Mark C.
      20 October 2020 @ 06:07
      Exactly...problem is I've seen the "Best Video" on real vision a few times and everything else in your comment is still valid.
  • QM
    Quinton M. | Contributor
    23 September 2020 @ 14:24
    I get the technology use of etheriun but can someone tell me why that bleeds thru to usefulness for the ether coin itself. It just sounds like a web platform. So call it html+ or web3.0 why does that give value to a coin. Thanks in advance.
    • LK
      L K.
      23 September 2020 @ 17:48
      Ether the token is required to pay the "gas" fee for getting transactions included in blocks. The analogy is that it is like oil for the digital world. It's up for debate whether this lead to value accumulating at the protocol token level. Some say that the token needs to be affordable for the network to be useful. Others argue to the opposite; search for "fat protocol thesis" to find out more.
    • AT
      Anthony T.
      23 September 2020 @ 18:18
      All of the DeFi & stablecoins run on top of Ethereum blockchain. To perform transactions and use the blockchain, you have to pay Ethereum miners in ETH (Ether the native token). So, the more transactions happen on Ethereum, the more ETH is needed by users
    • LB
      LUIS B.
      23 September 2020 @ 21:10
      Fees to use the services in the Ethereum blockchain are paid in Eth.
    • MZ
      Mark Z.
      23 September 2020 @ 21:40
      The transactions are secured by the network. The token is the incentive for securing the network.
    • AS
      Alex S.
      23 September 2020 @ 22:57
      I could also talk about this for hours! Maybe a future episode. Basically ETH is a triple point asset. Offers yield, store of value - stock to flow will soon be less than Bitcoin's & technology growth asset that almost trades like a commodity when paying for using the Ethereum protocol.
    • YR
      Yunier R.
      24 September 2020 @ 01:35
      You don't pay fees for anything else in the real world on it's own "token". You don't pay amazon on their own token, you use the current medium of exchange and unit of account. There is 0 reason for not using USD or BTC for that matter in ETH network or any other blockchain for that matter. Token has 0 value, utility is not value. It's like saying airlines miles or gift cards have value on their own, they don't. It's gresham's law, you hold the best money (BTC or USD) in this case, and spend all these worthless tokens you don't want to hold long term. That's why they're all called shitcoins, no matter how innovative the tech and network is, the tokens have no monetary value on their own.
    • OB
      OLIVER B.
      14 October 2020 @ 11:27
      @ Alex S ETH supply is not fixed therefore it isn't a scarce asset.
  • DF
    Dan F.
    25 September 2020 @ 13:08
    In a future state, can gold play more of a role of 'pristine collateral', alongside bitcoin? I'm thinking about real gold (not gold denominated credit or derivatives). This would assume that blockchain/ethereum would make endless collateral re-hypothication impossible...and therefore the gold derivative market irrelevant. If the gold derivative market goes away, the stock-to-flow valuation for gold begins to look much more like bitcoin does today. Thinking about this as it seems most central banks hold gold, not bitcoin, and wondering hold gold fits in the future monetary system.
    • BN
      Brady N.
      6 October 2020 @ 04:33
      I may be a few years or decades early but I see BTC competing directly for golds financial function. Its "financial value" sits there on an institutions books, as could BTC but one can move across the internet and one can't. Now with digital scarcity, could gold have a higher financial value if it weren't for its physical limitations?
  • TH
    Timo H.
    25 September 2020 @ 11:03
    The current DeFi narrative depends very heavily on the future of Ethereum. It is highly questionable, if it can ever evolve into a network, that has e.g. identity, governance, privacy and scalability issues completely resolved in a manner, that's required from a true financial services network. My bet is on something, where those four things are solved first.
    • SV
      Santiago V. | Contributor
      25 September 2020 @ 13:46
      Anyone following Timo in this space should take note. The 4 elements he cites here (identity, governance, privacy, & scalability) are essential elements for a truly decentralized financial system. They are four legs of the table, if you don't have one the system will eventually be out of balance and mean revert to the intrinsic value of the labor put into the code.
    • BN
      Brady N.
      6 October 2020 @ 03:41
      Agreed, DeFi seems to be built on sand at the moment. I don't see Ethereum firming up any time soon, or at all for that matter if the past is any indication.
  • CB
    Carl B.
    26 September 2020 @ 12:30
    Alex is obviously extremely knowledgeable and kudos to Raoul for drawing him out on so many points. HOWEVER the reason I had a slight frown on my face through most of this is because he's acting as an apologist for a set of half nonsense ideas. Ethereum is owned and controlled by a small group of people. So there is no censorship resistance there (and you really need that for financial instruments that circumvent the current system). I think the bitcoin maxis criticisms of Ethereum are broadly true: bitcoin has succeeded in taking the human out of the equation with regards to governance and policy. Ethereum very much hadn't. So it is NOT a decentralised world computer in the same way bitcoin is. It will fall foul of all the problems most institutions do. And personally I don't want that as the base layer for my financial products... or for legal contracts, or anything of value really... Defi is 99.9% an empty speculative rush right now. I take his broad point that all this financial innovation is an iterative evolutionary process and maybe something with true utility will come out of that. For now almost every participant is in there for quick free gains... it is, at whose expense, and when will it all crumble are the pertinent questions. For whatever reason Alex glossed over most of that.
    • BN
      Brady N.
      6 October 2020 @ 03:25
      I often remind myself that ETH is still a bit of an ICO. The value of these assets can really be anything as the price shows. I believe the actual value is in the network and code that it is built with/on. The "move fast and break stuff" can work up to a point but if it's long term network growth and stability your looking for, ETH hasn't proven itself yet.
  • PE
    Paul E.
    28 September 2020 @ 21:19
    Very exciting! We're on the ground floor of incredible change that is on the way!
  • MG
    Martin G.
    28 September 2020 @ 05:34
    Who the hell disliked the video? This was awesome
  • MD
    Matt D.
    26 September 2020 @ 21:31
    Maybe a stupid question, but what could I use a Stablecoin, or a crypto form of money (token, gold, or BTC) for in an everyday financial transaction? Like say $50,000 or more. Could I buy a car? Pay off a debt? Buy an investment? Reason I wonder is being able to transfer money, and earn interest on money, all becomes income to someone? Meaning tax??
    • CP
      Chamil P.
      28 September 2020 @ 01:34
      https://www.btcnn.com/luxury-house-in-australia-finally-sold-for-457-bitcoins/
    • CP
      Chamil P.
      28 September 2020 @ 01:37
      Lots of investment opportunities out there as well. in Australia, the Tax office has set up rules regarding crypto so it is up to us to self report. https://www.ato.gov.au/general/gen/tax-treatment-of-crypto-currencies-in-australia---specifically-bitcoin/?page=2 https://invictuscapital.com/imlFund https://invictuscapital.com/emsFund
  • NB
    Nicholas B.
    26 September 2020 @ 13:03
    I don't understand how projects using the Ethereum protocol equates to higher Ethereum token price, please help!?!
    • WP
      Wolfgang P.
      27 September 2020 @ 16:29
      AFAIK the answer is: Gas. So for a more accurate answer, I suggest googling the term. What follows is a half educated summary of my understanding. Actions taken on the Ehtereum blockchain have operating costs. When you want to compute something on the blockchain, you have to pay for the privilege. That action can take the form of sending tokens from one ledger to another, or it can be the execution of a smart contract. This payment happens in something called Gas. And Gas comes from ETH tokens. So any project on the ETH blockchain needs ETH to run. It burns Gas. Gas comes from ETH tokens. Every project on the ETH blockchain creates a demand for Gas, which creates a demand for ETH tokens. And this increase in demand leads to a higher token price.
  • RH
    Ron H.
    24 September 2020 @ 04:03
    Excellent interview - thank you both. Near the end, you touched on something I have been trying to wrap my head around for some time: does Bitcoin provide a real alternative to US treasury bonds, for China especially? They hold more than $1T in treasuries, but only because they have had no other choice, liquidity-wise. They clearly have been selling these for a while, and apparently stockpiling gold among other assets. Of course they'd need to layer in any BTC slowly over a number of years, given its current market size. How likely is this to play out (seems very likely to me), would we ever have a good way of knowing, and given the large mining pools in China would this phenomenon essentially render the extreme risk of a 51% attack irrelevant?
    • cz
      chris z.
      24 September 2020 @ 06:27
      1) Just by China owning a large supply of bitcoin, would not make the network any more/less susceptible to a 51% attack. That is based on hashrate. So I am not sure if that question is relevant. 2) I think that bitcoin is comparable to digital gold in many macro contexts. Many people believe that gold is increasingly becoming a substitute for treasuries. There is lots of content on that. If you buy into that, then you can easily make the leap to bitcoin becoming the same substitute.
    • RH
      Ron H.
      24 September 2020 @ 07:44
      What I was alluding to is that, if China loads into BTC as a reserve asset on the PBOC balance sheet, they would have a strong incentive to maintain the stability of the network and for the rest of the world to maintain trust in it, rather than an incentive to destabilize it for some reason by coercing mining pools into a 51% attack. As I understand it, around 2/3 of the network's hashrate originates in China, predominantly from a few such pools.
    • CB
      Clifford B.
      24 September 2020 @ 12:38
      @Ron H. No Government needs to load into anything, including BTC. All they need to do is tax the users in BTC and they will have all the supply they need.
    • SV
      Santiago V. | Contributor
      25 September 2020 @ 14:04
      @RonH The game theory you suggests would apply moreso to an individual than to a governing body interesting in maintaining political power. The stability of the political system >> than the currency regime of the PBOC. If Bitcoin threatens capital flight constraints or internal monetary policy, make no mistake, they'll do everything they can, which is substantial with a printing press backed by 1.4 billion, to squash it like a bug. It would be a war of consensus communities and right now Bitcoin would lose. I'm not saying the code would stop or the network would collapse, but the movement would be set back a decade. All that needs to happen is a series of progressive 51% attacks, double-spends, bitcoin market manipulations (pump, dump, short) etc. to shake the ticks off the dog. We need to thread carefully until these things can't happen.
    • RH
      Ron H.
      26 September 2020 @ 21:26
      Thank you for your response. That makes a lot of sense. Political stability > currency regime, although they are complexly intertwined. Fundamentally, this feels like perhaps the greatest risk to BTC's future, and yet it seems it will remain opaque to us for the forseeable future. If China wants to destabilize the network, they would appear to be more than capable of it, until hashrates are better distributed. Capital flight may be a concern, but how large of one is it really when they can also simply close their borders?
  • KB
    Kevin B.
    26 September 2020 @ 15:58
    Raoul - Really appreciate you asking some simplifying questions as this conversation goes along. It helps newcomers to the crypto space (like me) follow along without getting too lost in insider jargon and interviews like this haVe enabled me to move forward into the space with greater confidence.
  • NB
    Nicholas B.
    26 September 2020 @ 13:00
    Great works guys, thaks for getting fellow Aussie on who is a leader in the space. Hearing about the emerging projects, it sounds like a for of hypercapitalism is in play, let it roll
  • JL
    James L.
    24 September 2020 @ 06:33
    This makes me bullish Ethereum, but can someone please explain to me how Bitcoin is actually scarce? Miners could easily start an infinite number of new Bitcoin blockchains with a new genesis block with exactly the same properties as Bitcoin. This is different than gold where there is only one element with the exact properties of gold.
    • DL
      Daniel L.
      24 September 2020 @ 06:50
      To change the number of bitcoins you need to take control of the 51% of the network. No one in the world have a) the ability to gather that much computational power or b) coordinate 51% of all miners to do that as it will virtually be a suicide for miners' businesses. Bitcoin was attempted to be forked (see Bitcoin Cash and Bitcoin Satoshi Vision), but the community and miners did not decide to abandon the Bitcoin network in favour of forks. Check out such books as "Bitcoin Standard" and "Mastering Bitcoin"
    • JL
      James L.
      24 September 2020 @ 14:19
      1) Daniel, you missed the details of a question. A new Bitcoin blockchain, call it Bitcoin-2, and then Bitcoin-3, and then Bitcoin-n with a new genesis block, not a fork. As Bitcoin gets more deflationary, it's more likely that a new Bitcoin based blockchain or another currency entirely starts to win favor. 2) Miners not abandoning in the past, is no guarantee of them not doing so in the future, and on other Cryptocurrencies/tokens, they have chosen to leave the original blockchain and either fork or start a new blockchain entirely.
    • TM
      The-First-James M.
      24 September 2020 @ 16:12
      Without the same intellectual capital working on developing the new copy of the Bitcoin Network, why would I assign it any kind of value, or use it?
    • JS
      Jesse S.
      24 September 2020 @ 19:18
      Bitcoin can remain scarce because the bitcoin network enforces rules about validity of transactions, including the creation of new bitcoin. Invalid transactions are rejected by the network including miners that tried to create more than was allowed in a block (this has happened at least once in error by a miner running custom code). If you decided to copy the bitcoin code and start a new protocol, that wouldn't make you rich because the network wouldn't want to give up the security of the bitcoin network to chase after a new protocol that lacks the network effects. The emergent properties of the network (security, censorship-resistance, use) do not change significantly with the bitcoin price. If you try to modify the bitcoin protocol instead, I will fight you until my dying day unless the change is universally beneficial to the network.
    • JL
      James L.
      25 September 2020 @ 10:16
      @The First-James M. Three arguments against that. 1) Could use same code and protocol so same intellectual capital, just a new ledger 2) Bitcoin's integrity is based upon mining computational power not intellectual capital 3) It would be easy for intellectual captial to move to another protocol or new intellectual capital to enter the space on a different asset.
    • JL
      James L.
      25 September 2020 @ 10:18
      I understand how the Bitcoin protocol enforces scarcity on that ledger. I am talking about the potential for consensus of miners or users to eventually change to either a different ledger with the same protocol or even a different protocol that has superior characteristics. Saying that has been proven over only a matter of 10 years highly dubious, and it would be very unwise to base a new monetary system with Bitcoin as the base. It could play a role, but I'm just arguing for some skepticism on its true scarcity. As mining of Bitcoin becomes less lucrative due to the increasing difficultly of computation and better growth opportunities in other crypto assets, it could be easy to see miners converting capacity to other ledgers, decreasing the robustness of Bitcoin. Those other ledgers whether Bitcoin-protocol based or other protocol based could then easily become better transactional currencies. But there are an infinite number of ledgers, even if the coins are finite, so it is not truly scarce, it is only based around consensus, which can easily be seen to be fickle.
    • SV
      Santiago V. | Contributor
      25 September 2020 @ 13:58
      The scarcity of a digital abstraction is enforced only by the consensus of the governed (and by governed I mean the network of participants in a particular ecosystem - asset holders, miners for PoW, node operators, developers, exchanges, custodians, etc.). The argument behind the Bitcoin blockchain being immutable is false, it is highly improbable that it can be changed because of the momentum & current consensus. To your point though, there are things that occur in all social constructs that shatter consensus and lead to "revolutions". To suggest that Bitcoin, and the humans behind it, are somehow immune to this very nature is immature. The important thing to remember is that you now have choice, and it's that choice that we should protect at all costs. The choice to choose the form of value for you to express and then having an interoperable framework on which to trade. That is the true promise of the Internet of Value.
    • JL
      James L.
      26 September 2020 @ 02:07
      @Santiago V. Thank you so much for that reply. Someone that finally doesn't just buy the "bitcoin is scarce" dogma unquestioningly.
  • NL
    Nicholas L.
    25 September 2020 @ 23:54
    An interesting chat that really could have used more structure. I learned a lot, but it jumped all over the place!
  • GB
    Griffin B.
    23 September 2020 @ 22:37
    Why would I send stablecoin to someone when I can just Venmo someone and not have to pay the transaction fee to buy the stable coin and then the fee to transfer it??
    • AS
      Alex S.
      23 September 2020 @ 22:50
      Well a stablecoin fee to buy & send is near zero. We are talking 1/1000th of a cent when using Loopring Pay on Ethereum for example. Not every country has Venmo. Important not to take a US centric view.
    • CC
      Christopher C.
      24 September 2020 @ 00:27
      The Ethereum ERC20 ecosystem is completely open source and interoperable. It has created an app store like experience for developers to publish new applications which take advantage of that. So you get these DeFi Lego blocks covering everything from derivatives to savings and loans to tokenized securities. Venmo is neat but it doesn't clear instantly for example. Venmo earns interest on its holdings while you wait to cash out and it pays back none of that to the users. In DeFi you can keep that yield for yourself and still get all the benefits of peer to peer transfer, with no intermediaries.
    • GB
      Griffin B.
      25 September 2020 @ 19:49
      Thanks for the responses. I am unfamiliar with Loopring Pay and am talking about buying the stable coin on an exchange and then sending where the fees are higher (and where most of these transactions would occur). I agree than the Venmo comment was US-centric, but it is not relevant for trying to convince someone in the US to switch from an easy-to-use, protected, and secure service like Venmo. Not saying crypto is not these things, but the centralization of Venmo has benefits for the average user.
  • SM
    Sam M.
    24 September 2020 @ 07:52
    I kept thinking .... that's a taxable event ... and that ... and that. I would guess 99.9pct are not reserving their tax liabilities. Maybe there is a blockchain solution to that as well or will be programmed in the next few weeks.
    • LS
      Luke S.
      24 September 2020 @ 23:04
      That'd be a great feature for Rotki, which is a crypto portfolio tracker that's being developed. I've got faith it in since it's open-source you may audit its usage of your data to ensure it respects your privacy. It allows you to manage tax liabilities depending on your jurisdiction https://rotki.com
    • SV
      Santiago V. | Contributor
      25 September 2020 @ 13:51
      I could not agree more, wrote a whole thread on Twitter about it. https://twitter.com/Santiag78758327/status/1299031130667188226?s=20
  • SH
    Shunjie H.
    25 September 2020 @ 02:34
    Im not sure if I should post my question here or in the exchange, please let me know. Question: If I do not have a banking account in my region, how is having a low cost and borderless transfer going to help me in my work in my community? No matter BTC or ETH, it is not 100% adopted. So even if I can get transferred, it remains in my wallet which I cannot utilise unless it is back to the crypto ecosystem. Am I the only one asking this or is this an irrelevant question? Looking forward to comments. Thank you.
    • SV
      Santiago V. | Contributor
      25 September 2020 @ 13:48
      This is completely relevant. Until the digital asset ecosystem has processes and procedures in place that are cradle-to-grave digitally native and accessible, and at the same time solve a financial problem for an end user, it will continue to be a closed system dependent on fiat liquidity inflows. Value interoperability with real world goods & services (that are themselves digitized) is the final frontier for the Internet of Value so that people like you, living anywhere in the world, can use this technology in their real life. For now these are all sophisticated experiments trying out incentive systems and methods to deliver on that promise.
  • FB
    Fernando B.
    23 September 2020 @ 16:22
    Excellent interview! Raoul, you asked exactly my concerns in using cryptos to transfer big amounts and the fear of keeping a balance with a third party. Now, I want to understand the insights Mr. Saunders has on this area. Thanks Raoul
    • RA
      Ross A.
      25 September 2020 @ 07:31
      Send a very small amount first. Check they got it and then re use the "Send To" address without typing it in again.
  • RA
    Ross A.
    25 September 2020 @ 07:28
    OH DEAR Raoul! You expect to get interest on your loans. How very old school! Soon you will be paying interest to lend money.
  • MC
    Mike C.
    24 September 2020 @ 05:06
    ALEX said - "Will Apple just print more shares?" Apple are not a bank. They don't simultaneously create a bank deposit (liability) when they issue equity (asset). The shares are paid for by existing deposits (bank liabilities) from the monetary base. If Apple make an acquisition using scrip it's still an asset swap. When a business issues new shares they make a return on that issuance in excess of their WACC. It's a net positive return. Alex you seem like a smart guy but you are conflating monetary system concepts with corporate finance concepts. Did you say this because you honestly dont understand the error in what you said or did you say it because it sounds good and helps your cause? I can't tell. Raoul - Errors like this seem to be more common from guests in conversations you are having lately and I notice you don't say anything. I know you know its happening so why are you silent? Its a clear degradation of standards. Please lift your game.
    • AS
      Alex S.
      25 September 2020 @ 02:14
      AAPL prints more shares out of thin air, who buys? - yes some savers pay with cash/equivalents BUT - Swiss National Bank buys with freshly printed fiat - Investors buy in their margin accounts - Investors redraw on their mortgage other assets to invest - Investors take out loans from retail banks to invest - Board members & staff are issued new shares for free All this is inflationary don't you think?
  • JG
    Jeremy G.
    25 September 2020 @ 01:46
    Very informative. Great chat.
  • PR
    Prashanth R.
    25 September 2020 @ 01:35
    I love the questions that have been asked and the simplicity of the answers. This interview has something in it for the experienced, the amateurs and the beginners.
  • LG
    Lucas G.
    25 September 2020 @ 01:02
    Great Discussion. Thanks
  • DL
    Darren L.
    25 September 2020 @ 00:43
    The DeFi name is a misleading marketing gimmick because all of the projects using it are centralized. UnFi or unregulated finance would be a much more accurate term.
  • PR
    Private R.
    24 September 2020 @ 09:01
    I admire RVs desire to cover the entire 'crypto space' but unfortunately many will be led down the wrong rabbithole only to emerge with a worthless bag of things they never really understood in the first place. Stick to bitcoin.
    • LS
      Lewis S.
      24 September 2020 @ 21:35
      Maybe there are other ways to engage with this stuff than just buying tokens?
  • AK
    Andrew K.
    24 September 2020 @ 20:32
    Where does Algorand come into the picture?
  • CH
    Crag H.
    23 September 2020 @ 21:00
    Alex is very well articulated and I like the fact that he said "99% of all tokens will go to zero". But this piece came out hugely bullish on Ethereum without mentioning anything about the fundamental technical issues it's facing. I mean, the Ethereum blockchain have grown like 120GB in two weeks(!). How is that *not* going to lead to a hugely centralized system? Only operators of huge datacenters will be able to run this thing in the end.
    • MZ
      Mark Z.
      23 September 2020 @ 21:13
      Sharding.
    • AS
      Alex S.
      23 September 2020 @ 22:52
      I could have gone on for hours! But things like pruning will make running a full node easier in future as you are correct we want to avoid centralisation.
    • YR
      Yunier R.
      24 September 2020 @ 01:30
      ETH nodes have been running on Infura data center only for years now. No one really runs independent nodes themselves, has never been decentralized really.
    • CH
      Crag H.
      24 September 2020 @ 18:21
      Someone need to run a full (archive) node to make 100% sure that everything is still valid, no? So pruning and/or sharding won't make that task any easier afaik.
  • MJ
    Marius J.
    24 September 2020 @ 17:56
    Great!
  • WC
    William C.
    24 September 2020 @ 11:40
    Can we also please have an Interview Between Raol and Alex Mashinsky of Celsius Network.
    • JB
      Joseph B.
      24 September 2020 @ 15:34
      This would be awesome!!
  • dd
    diego d.
    24 September 2020 @ 12:07
    thnx Alex
  • ML
    Michael L.
    24 September 2020 @ 11:51
    Wish I could “thumbs up” twice! Great discussion, very eye opening! Well done gents!
  • ig
    ian g.
    23 September 2020 @ 09:19
    Alex and Raoul ! Two of the best crypto / macro investment /financial Info Gurus out there .... Jawboning about the future of cryptos ! Best 67min you can possibly spend ! THANK YOU
    • WT
      WILLIAM T.
      24 September 2020 @ 11:17
      True, but just wait until you hear Sergio Velez interview Gilbert Verdian (CEO of Quant Network) on October 14 (video posted a few days later).
  • JH
    Jonathan H.
    24 September 2020 @ 07:06
    This video made me realise that the technology and ideology of the crypto space is inherently good. However there is not a lot of specialised experience in the space. As a result, the solutions conjured up are shiny trinkets that have little to no chance being utilised at a massive scale. A poor mirroring of an already functioning system — no matter how slow, cumbersome, or filled with barriers to entry. The value proposition of ETH is its ability to run smart contracts and, to a lesser extent, creating dApps/ERC tokens. However, DeFi without individuals with reputable backings is just speculators chasing yield or mini-bubbles. I am not entirely sure if Real Vision chooses to interview these crypto devs/investors who have close ties to BTC or ETH solely based on the price of the assets or because the assets have “first mover advantages”. I propose that interviewing individuals building VeChain, Hedera Hashgraph, and Ripple. Or any projects that have connections/contracts with governments/organisations to solve legacy problems with new technology. Do your own research (DYOR)
    • AS
      Alex S.
      24 September 2020 @ 09:50
      Ethereum has over 600 businesses & corporates using the protocol from government's issuing bonds to EY using for contracts.
    • PR
      Private R.
      24 September 2020 @ 10:15
      Alex, is there a list of these anywhere?
    • JH
      Jonathan H.
      24 September 2020 @ 10:23
      How many are using ETH for DeFi? I am aware that organisations are using ETH. Or maybe the question should be how many communities/organisations have benefited from DeFi so far? Specifically Uniswap, YFI, YFII, Sushi, and the list goes on.
  • PC
    Paul C.
    24 September 2020 @ 09:40
    Raoul it's funny that you mention not caring about the protocol underlying the video call you are on with Alex (VoIP), as the guy who created VoIP is now heading up Celsius Network which is a centralised crypto borrowing/lending platform! Celsius has grown to over 130,000 users since launching in 2017 and Alex Mashinsky the CEO does a weekly AMA every friday. They've built a very strong community and vowed to always give back 80% profits to the users, Alex M is a really passionate guy and I really recommend you check out what he's doing and consider interviewing him for RV Crypto.
  • WC
    William C.
    24 September 2020 @ 09:24
    Loved this interview. more, please
  • AS
    Ananth S.
    24 September 2020 @ 08:39
    I have heard Alex explain these concepts in much more details before. I think he is struggling to keep the conversation simple by not going too much into technical knowledge. You're forte is technology and how it works Alex embrace embrace
  • JL
    James L.
    24 September 2020 @ 06:47
    Most people don't have the choice to move so easily, either politically or economically. Raoul takes that for granted a bit, and we should be standing up for the privacy and rights of the powerless in society, including further control by government digital currency.
  • sc
    sung c.
    24 September 2020 @ 05:28
    Can someone answer: 1) What is the chance that when you loan out your Bitcoin to collect a yield, what is the chance of getting it hacked and you lose your BTC, and 2) If you want to sell your BTC which you loaned out, do you have to wait for a promised period?
    • cz
      chris z.
      24 September 2020 @ 06:24
      1) There is no definitive answer, but its clearly nonzero. The 2 services I am most familiar with are BlockFi and Celsius. They pay mid single digit APR on bitcoin. They are not insured. They loan the bitcoin out on the other side. So there is hack risk plus solvency risk. But hey, that's why you earn a yield. 2) Varies by service. BlockFi has a 30 day lock up period. Celsius has none (but lower yields).
    • DL
      Daniel L.
      24 September 2020 @ 06:46
      1) There are 2 options to earn a yield on your BTC: via a centralised provider (e.g. Binance, Crypto.com) or via a decentralised platform (e.g. Aave, Compound Network). In case of the former - you are taking on a counterparty risk, incl. lack of transparency, in case of the latter - a technical risk, i.e. a hack or a smart contract exploit. Decentralised platforms are transparent and fully verifiable, most of them have publicly available smart contract audit reports available, also their entire AUM is essentially a large bug bounty - if you can crack teh code, you can take it all. Hence, choose a platfrom with a track record, but don't forget to cover your risk with either put options or insurance like solutions (see Nexus Mutual). There are other risks that you need to be aware off - this is trust-minimised ecosystem, not risk-free. 2) In case of DeFi - there are NO lock-up periods, you are able to deposit and withdraw you collateral, as well as take/close/add you loan at any point in time. Even if the front-end website gets shutdown, you can still access these platforms directly on ethereum as they are decentralsied. 24/7/365 instant redemptions.
  • TR
    Tom R.
    24 September 2020 @ 06:10
    Awesome videos guys, love Nuggets News!
  • BB
    Bob B.
    24 September 2020 @ 02:31
    Great exploration. Questions/Comment: - I have no idea of the loss rate of any crypto (Ex 1% of Bitcoin is lost from any means - lost password, wallet,.. means half of Bitcoin left in 50 yrs?) This implies crypto base is not stable - both numerator and denominator changes for valuation influencing nominal value. This is not unlike any unit of account application. - Blockchain is a fascinating and boon to economic exchange. Ethereum certain looks a leader in this space. - No mention of the degree of criminal activity in Bitcoin (and other crypto). Some have said bulk of volume is related to criminal activity. Given Bitcoin's advantages that seem plausible. Should and how can this be minimized? - There seems to be an unassailable assumption the 'Internet' is here forever, at least in its free-for-all framework. Is that a reasonable assumption? What might be the implications of controlled access? As an example, who would of thought that large enterprises would be regulating freedom of speech as is happening today? - China bans cryptos at the point of imprisonment or death. Surely there are serious authoritarian risks. - Criminals have no rules. Home invasions happen even with policing. "Give me all your money/crypto." That's of course if they don't find electronic means to steal it. Lots of other concerns . What my concerns mean to me is that crypto is on a long evolutionary path to address the established monetary infrastructure and support structures. It's great to see rapid advancement but setbacks will continue for some time. Looking forward to more interviews and discussion. Thanks
    • LS
      Lewis S.
      24 September 2020 @ 03:00
      I am not sure that bitcoin is as useful to criminals as it once was. The anonymity of bitcoin has turned out to be somewhat mythological, in truth it is only pseudonymous. From what I understand the vast bulk is now in trading.
    • SM
      Shawn M.
      24 September 2020 @ 03:52
      JPM , Jaimie Diamond. The king MONEY LAUNDERING wanted nothing to with crypto . Wishes he had got his head out of his ass a little earlier.
  • JK
    Jake K.
    24 September 2020 @ 02:26
    This is a triple viewing interview. So much ground covered.
  • Sp
    Scott p.
    24 September 2020 @ 01:50
    I feel like a lot of people can do with some help from this podcast from Swan Signal just released featuring Raoul Pal and Vijay Boyapati. Raoul frames his Ethereum Thesis against Vijay's Thesis that Eth doesn't scale. https://t.co/KNUpj8ZYKz?amp=1
    • Sp
      Scott p.
      24 September 2020 @ 02:22
      This is an absolute prerequisite for anybody thinking of investing in Ethereum or other projects.
  • JS
    Jon S.
    24 September 2020 @ 01:54
    I have one comment for Raoul: I hope I will catch his attention. I was in a trading conference and I heard an interesting idea which is spread trading with the price of most famous game weapons (such as fortnite; Minecraft). Have you heard about it? Many thanks 🙏 many 😊 for your brief response, if you have the opportunity to respond.
  • JS
    Jon S.
    24 September 2020 @ 01:42
    I expect ethereum to lose still 75% of the value first however.
  • JS
    Jon S.
    24 September 2020 @ 01:41
    And one thing more I invest based on leaders and the person in charge of ethereum looks to me intuitively pretty smart, but I know this is a very subjective approach.
  • JS
    Jim S.
    23 September 2020 @ 23:15
    So, pardon my ignorance.. still trying to understand. But what would be the best way to invest in the Eth Network/rail system. I was looking at buying the token, but I didn’t see how that translated into investing in the technology. I see many companies working in this space but they seem to be private ventures. Is most investing in the network coming through ICOs?
    • AS
      Alex S.
      24 September 2020 @ 00:25
      Personally I am 35% BTC, 35% ETH. Then 1-2% in a range of Alts, treated as early stage seed investments. This is where our research is focused.
    • YR
      Yunier R.
      24 September 2020 @ 01:27
      That's the issue, most people don't understand money to be able to separate the tech from the monetary aspects of it. Tech could be great and fine for them to innovate all they want, but doesn't mean the token have any value whatsoever, it's printing money same way central banks do. Only bitcoin lunched fair and got monetary value due to scarcity, not based on the tech or any token utility. ETH is not money and the token doesn't have value because of the tech. Same way fb coin or amazon coin won't have value because their tech is great.
    • Sp
      Scott p.
      24 September 2020 @ 01:41
      This is the paradox of ETH, the more it's used, the higher the fees, the more Eth that gets liquidated to fiat by the miners (who get the fees). Plus the higher the fees, the less the network can be used for. Transaction fees for some of the defi projects can be well over $200. The ultimate way to invest in ETH is as a tech platform IMO is to be a miner. Of course Eth is planning to move to proof of stake in the future, in which case you would want to be a validator/staker to bet on the network. Basically if you think Ethereum is going to be used for it's technology, you want to be long Ethereum fees, which is long people using Ethereum, which isn't the same as the token price. I've heard it's possible to lock in gas fees at a certain period of time, there could be an opportunity there but I haven't investigated that yet,
  • JS
    Jon S.
    24 September 2020 @ 01:38
    Bitcoin might be scarce but ethereum value is unlimited- if ethereum will be the main technology and the token part of the smart contracts and automatization? Why should not be scarcity in the future in ethereum? I think this is something to keep an eye on.
  • JS
    Jon S.
    24 September 2020 @ 01:34
    To me the ethereum is not silver or comparable to silver. As the Interviewee is saying ethereum can be the next internet 2.0, smartcontracts... ethereum is the automatization of so many Industries... for anyone working in logistics for example ethereum is a way to insure themselves from the upcoming automatization.
  • CB
    Clifford B.
    24 September 2020 @ 00:26
    Interesting interview. So you're worried about usd printing? No problem, use our fleshly minted, shadily backed $1.00 tokens instead. Much quicker but if you put in the wrong address , sucks to be you. Still worried about USD printing out of thin air? We got you covered. Buy our freshly created digital coins that were created out of you guessed it, THIN AIR, then sit on them and wait for someone to buy your newly minted computer code tokens for more than you paid for them. They're an asset, a hedge, all be it one that shits itself faster than pretty much everything else when liquidity dries up. Good luck to all speculators.
    • LN
      Laurie N.
      24 September 2020 @ 01:22
      Sounds a bit more than slightly, passive aggressive.
  • LN
    Laurie N.
    24 September 2020 @ 00:22
    Fantastic and sUper helpful conversation amidst exponentially exciting times. It's all developing so rapidly...essential clarification needed regularly. Such brilliant expression of thought possibility in action, is the crypto space. Raoul never ceases to provide value.
  • GA
    Gary A.
    24 September 2020 @ 00:02
    Wow, that was an amazing video.
  • BG
    Borja G.
    23 September 2020 @ 23:57
    Brilliant guy, loved it!
  • MZ
    Mark Z.
    23 September 2020 @ 21:13
    Any fellow Degens here?
    • JT
      Justin T.
      23 September 2020 @ 21:36
      Here ser
    • AS
      Alex S.
      23 September 2020 @ 22:51
      Yes
    • AN
      An N.
      23 September 2020 @ 23:32
      degen reporting in
  • AN
    An N.
    23 September 2020 @ 23:30
    wait til you boomers find out about the token design of zenon and the apy lol
  • DO
    DIOGO O.
    23 September 2020 @ 12:48
    Hey guys, Is there a course on this stablecoins projects? Because it is SO MUCH stuff...I got overwelmed....
    • AS
      Alex S.
      23 September 2020 @ 22:58
      We have free educational resources on our website. nuggetsnews.com.au
  • bm
    brian m.
    23 September 2020 @ 20:28
    What is really impressive about Alex is his understanding of the Macro world, evident in his conversations with Raoul and Bret Johnson. Nuggets News is about the best way to keep in touch with Crypto as far as I can see.
    • AS
      Alex S.
      23 September 2020 @ 22:53
      Thank you Brian. :)
  • PN
    Paco N.
    23 September 2020 @ 18:24
    DeFi is a waste of time. Need more focus on real money, the true store of value. Bitcoin/BTC.
    • MZ
      Mark Z.
      23 September 2020 @ 21:24
      There ours more btc being represented on ethereum locked up on defi, than on lightning network, btc scaling solution. It isn't going away.
    • PR
      Private R.
      23 September 2020 @ 21:30
      I think the locked bitcoin might go away :) Seriously though, some useful things in DeFi for the future but at the moment its just empowering s***coin gambling. ETH is being flattened by it and will soon face competition from Binance for the DeFi use case. Personally, wouldn't touch ETH.
    • LS
      Lewis S.
      23 September 2020 @ 22:52
      What are you going to do if, say, the Satoshi block moves? And a note is left on the move saying 'Craig was here', or it turns out to have been an NSA project, or who knows what could happen given its shadowy comic book origin story. Its not bitcoin vs defi, bitcoin is part of defi. Defi is about redundancy. All eggs in one basket is efficient but fragile, defi is about making more baskets.
  • JK
    John K.
    23 September 2020 @ 22:04
    Visa has a debit card you can use crypto with and also does wirex. That’s a pretty smooth way of transacting crypto
    • AS
      Alex S.
      23 September 2020 @ 22:51
      Not every country has Visa & financial payment rails. Some do but with heavy censorship. Important not to take a US centric view.
  • TP
    Timothy P.
    23 September 2020 @ 16:52
    De-Fi -- "Lets re-create the failures of the legacy system using inflationary tokens and hope that the people involved don't do a runner with our locked up tokens." Good show, guys. I laughed pretty hard. Glossing over the YAM and Sushiswap incidents (among others) tells me what bent RV has on this space. They are not exceptions, they are part of the swap-loops that hucksters are trying to get value out of. I guess this will become more obvious when ETH's migration fails. In any event, staking coins getting "yield" that is essentially payout from an inflationary coin base is playing russian roulette hoping the FED-esque central control mavens don't inflate your "yield" away. Hilarious.
    • LS
      Lewis S.
      23 September 2020 @ 20:40
      Some will do a runner, but ultimately there is more incentive to provide stable working platforms. It's true that individual projects are like miniature central banks that can inflate their own token, but they are in competition with each other to keep their clients who can leave at any time, unlike the FED from whom we have no escape.
    • MZ
      Mark Z.
      23 September 2020 @ 21:38
      Yield farming was chaos, fiat like printing experiment. Glad its over
    • TP
      Timothy P.
      23 September 2020 @ 22:41
      You can tell who the bagholders are by the downvotes :)
  • MM
    Matthew M.
    23 September 2020 @ 22:36
    Alex is a legend!
  • SU
    Shakeel U.
    23 September 2020 @ 17:58
    Another talk on monopoly money 😐
    • PR
      Private R.
      23 September 2020 @ 21:31
      talking of monopoly money, I prefer to use the USD :)
  • jg
    jesse g.
    23 September 2020 @ 21:19
    Absolutely loved the interview. I watch Nugget news regularly and still could've listened to this for another hour. Thanks Raoul and Alex!
  • JK
    Johan K.
    23 September 2020 @ 20:57
    Hey Raoul, When are you going to airdrop RV governance tokens to RV users? :)
  • TC
    Trevor C.
    23 September 2020 @ 20:50
    Two words: great interview
  • CK
    Cristina K.
    23 September 2020 @ 17:12
    thanks for this. i have been wanting to get a good explanation about Defi
  • JR
    Jason R.
    23 September 2020 @ 16:32
    Now that is what I am talking about. Leading edge of finance right here. So glad to see Real Vision looking at defi. The next big game changer in finance.
  • XP
    X P.
    23 September 2020 @ 15:58
    You can see Raoul's super focused attention through all the conversation... love it! :D @Raoul, another suggestion: Get Mariano Conti (@nanexcool) he was head of smart contracts for Maker DAO and he is now working with YFI. He is from Argentina and has been living 100% in crypto (because of Argentinian inflation) for 5+ years.
  • JM
    Jason M.
    23 September 2020 @ 15:20
    Very informative. The most interesting aspect is moving from a static hold (i.e. gold or Bitcoin long hold) to digital lending your Crypto, globally at yields not achievable in conventional markets. Or perhaps rather, given an example of large sums like Micro Strategies, they become a digital bank, lending to gain interest on their $$ Bitcoin holding.
  • DS
    Devin S.
    23 September 2020 @ 15:17
    The collab we've all been waiting for!
  • DR
    David R.
    23 September 2020 @ 13:06
    Really good and a lot to think about. Future ramifications will be huge and actual financial system and asset class will soon be « not as important as it is now ». A new ecosystem is born and it’s growing fast!
  • EP
    Emma P.
    23 September 2020 @ 12:19
    Love your work. I am trying to think through how defi can replace banks. There are several aspects to banks. One that you have often rightly criticized is the plumbing, the payment system, particularly international payments. Digital assets/ crypto/digital processes can revolutionize that within the current banking system. I use payid with my current bank for instant transfers. These are much faster than the other options. Payid is not universally available in the banks in my country. Technology can fix the plumbing. Banks also lend. The key skill in issuing loans is assessing credit risk, the risk of the borrower failing, and not repaying the loan. Enough loan losses and the bank is broke. Its a fact of life that things fail all the time. Relationships, marriages, businesses. One of my questions regarding defi is how can it assess and mitigate lending/credit risk when lending to real-world businesses. How will it manage, and when required realize the real world collateral (cars, real estate, equipment) when loans go bad due to business failure/ job losses? Regarding net interest margins, how can defi lending offer such high returns compared to fiat lending? High returns usually mean high risk?
  • AL
    Aaron L.
    23 September 2020 @ 12:16
    This interview was going great and the last 20mins was like a nuclear bomb! In the words of boy wonder, Holy Swift destroying etherum wrapping crypto Batman!
  • TW
    Tom W.
    23 September 2020 @ 11:47
    Fascinating and educational. Cant wait for whats to come. Thanks to both of you. For me its still hard to grasp in which way central banks will allow to use their digital currency to buy BTC for example. Or how this will play out, because i would think they dont have an interest that people opt out of their system and maybe try to enforce its use by limiting on and off ramps for Crypto.
  • PJ
    Peter J.
    23 September 2020 @ 09:38
    Brilliant, Alex is one of the best in the space!!! He should be a regular on the crypto channel!
  • LS
    Lewis S.
    23 September 2020 @ 09:05
    Thanks for getting Alex on!